Philosophical Video Games?

Aug 12, 2009 7:19 PM

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Jan 2009

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Now I love anime as much as the next guy, but the fact of the matter is I do, in general, spend more time playing video games than watching anime. But I do love my philosophy. Video games overall may be better known for delivering the not-so-deep thrills of stomping on mushrooms, mutilating monsters, or shooting terrorists, and "challenging the mind" in games usually means providing players with puzzles that require ingenuity and critical thinking for a definitive solution. (not that there's anything wrong with any of the above.) But I know for a fact that there are games out there that can be challenging in more sophisticated ways, that can play with our perceptions of reality or give us ambitious, allegorical stories. I've played or am planning to play some of these, but I'm always - ALWAYS - eager to hear of more, no matter what their genre, platform, or demographic. I'll start by listing the games I know firsthand or have heard convincing evidence to be philosophical, and I hope others will chime in with their suggestions. With luck, all of us gamers here will have a great new list of games to seek out the next time they're at the local Gamestop.

- Chrono Cross (PS1) (The first game toyed with some mildly philosophical themes, and having played it is quite important to grasping the subtleties of the second. But Cross really took those themes and expanded them aggressively, providing many intense and provocative musings about the nature of reality, the significance of life and death, the role of human beings in nature, and the timeless question of fate vs. free will. The best part is that these themes were meaningfully incorporated into the gameplay, not just the dialogue - while the story dealt with the question of predetermination versus control over our own destiny, the game literally balanced the player's ability to influence the progression of the storyline with certain common plot threads that were unavoidable, leaving the player uncertain as to just what they had control over and what was in fact inevitable. The ending was beautifully postmodern and really made you think about your own existence. And of course, after you beat the game you could mess with the plot entirely to see dramatically different outcomes.)

- Xenogears/Xenosaga (PS1/PS2 respectively) (I have barely played these, but own them, and I REALLY should. I'm kinda waiting for Gears to come out on PSN (it's already out in Japan) so I can download it to my PSP and play it on the go. It should be telling that the Chrono Cross guys made these games too - Monolith Soft knows how to make games with provocative storylines.)

- Bioshock (360, PS3, PC) (I literally just got this last weekend, so I'll soon see if the rumors about this game's philosophical depth ring true.)

- Final Fantasy Tactics (PS1, PSP) (Yasumi Matsuno is another video-game storyteller with a penchant for genuine depth, and this game is deeply concerned with the morality of politics and, once again, the question of free will versus predestination)

- Metal Gear Solid 2 (PS2) (I won't give anything away to those who haven't played it, but let me assure you, the ending will make you think. A lot. Those who have played it know exactly what I'm talking about. Other games in the series, particularly the original/Twin Snakes, are pretty abstract and thought-provoking as well, but MGS2 is easily the poster child for the series as it relates to philosophy.)

- The Shin Megami Tensei series, each in their own way - the Persona games explore themes of psychology and personal identity, while the main-series games are more concerned with morality and human nature.

- I've also heard very positive things about the Fallout series, Deus Ex, Grim Fandango, Braid, and arguably the games of Suda 51, depending on whether you think they're loaded with social symbolism or merely ultra-stylized weirdness.

- Give me more!!

Ni_Go_Zero_IchiDec 16, 2010 8:11 AM

Aug 12, 2009 8:24 PM

Pierre_Bezukhov

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Jun 2009

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gatotsu911 said:
Bioshock (I literally just got this last weekend, so I'll soon see if the rumors about this game's philosophical depth ring true.)

I don't play video games, but I do know that Bioshock contains exstensive refrences to Ayn Rand's "philosophy" objectivism (that is if you consider it one). The "philosophy" of Bioshock is for of an arguement against her ideas. Her views, by the way, are completely bullshit (I've read Atlas Shrugged). I don't know how it reacts against her idea of reality, but I know it tears apart her view on egoism and economics.

"In the Beginning, the creative energy radiates from within."
-
No, no. That's Lame. Sounds like something out of a Jodorowsky comic.

The Tokusyu Manga Club - Features alternative comics/avant-garde comics/outsider comics/psychdelic comics/surrealistic comics/underground comics + La Nouvelle Manga (part of Alternative).

If I'm here, its because I have nothing better to do.

Aug 12, 2009 10:11 PM

Ni_Go_Zero_Ichi

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Well, I'll soon see. All I've heard about it is that it is "deeply philosophical" (at least by Game Informer's standards) and borrows a lot from Ayn Rand. So, I figure there's only one way to find out if I agree. Even if it's not, at least it looks like a pretty engaging game.

Ni_Go_Zero_IchiAug 12, 2009 10:26 PM

Aug 13, 2009 2:29 AM

Danish

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Nov 2007

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I've played Xenogears and MGS2 and I have to agree. The ending to MGS2 was magnificent in regards to Snake's talking with Raiden..
Xenogears is a masterpiece and I have yet to see an anime who's story and characters can compare.

I don't play videogames anymore but I used to be addicted.

Phantom Dust (Xbox): It deals heavily with the nature of existence and how self awareness plays a role in our existence. It basically focuses on how we exist solely because we're aware of ourselves and are able to sustain our being. I'm sure there's a theory for something akin to that.

Advent Rising (Xbox): Deals with the potential of mankind and the abuse of power. It could be interpreted a number of ways.

DanishAug 13, 2009 2:30 PM

Aug 13, 2009 5:50 AM

Kaiserpingvin

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Jan 2008

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Corrupt_Id said:
Xenogears is a masterpiece and I have yet to see an anime who's story and characters can compare.

This. It is beyond magnificent. If I'd recommend only a single game to someone, it would be Xenogears.

I am sadly not very much of a gamer at all. However, Umineko, as far as we can call that a "game", is one of the most philosophical pop-cultural things I have ever encountered. Unlike the trite subjects of free will, metaphysics and ethics, it ponders far more modern and interesting things; mainly epistemology and logic (not that a sort of superimposed relativism isn't the driving force of the story). It's, of course, not very unique or deep into the subjects, because that would bore people to death and be irrelevant.

On the other hand, it actually deals with shit actual philosophers deal with. Certainity, epistemic justification, the problem of induction, and so on.

Still, it's a sound novel, so idk how much you can call it a game. Not that it matters.

Aug 13, 2009 2:10 PM

Ni_Go_Zero_Ichi

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Jan 2009

136

Hmmmm... okay, well let's start listing platforms. I'm editing my post to mention which platforms the mentioned games are on.

And I wouldn't exactly call free will, metaphysics and ethics "trite"... there's a reason they are some of the most fundamental questions to humankind. People have been asking them for generations, and obviously we don't have any definitive answers. Sure, they're also some of the easiest philosophical concepts to grasp, but I think dismissing them as "trite" smacks of elitism and condescension.

Ni_Go_Zero_IchiAug 13, 2009 2:14 PM

Aug 13, 2009 8:20 PM

Waza

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Apr 2008

Persona 3 on the PS2, deals with life and death, the desire of "Man" towards its own end, the constant fight of living and the importance of human relationships. You'll love the "Pink Crocodile" story the sick boy writes duriung the story (it's actually a side story, but the best freakin side story I ever saw).

Wild Arms 1, PS1. The storytelling is pretty poor, but the subjects are quite interesting. It deals mainly with the spiritual problems of modern society (even though it's in a sci-fi medieval-cowboy kind of universe). It's defenatly not outstanding, but could be worth a check.

Thanks the info about Xenogears, I'll defenatly be buying it on PSN as soon as it come out ^.^

Aug 13, 2009 8:54 PM

naikou

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Sep 2007

2551

Good to see some Xenogears love in here. It's one of the few games I've enjoyed despite disliking the actual gameplay.

idk about other philosophy-related games. I typically prefer my vidya to focus less on narrative and more on entertainment, so anything blatantly philosophy-related is a turn off for me.

There has to be something in Katamari Damacy, though, right? Yeah, they probably crammed something philosophy related in between the mushroom cats and rainbow beams.

Aug 22, 2009 11:00 AM

moetron

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Dec 2007

Planescape:Torment (PC)

Aug 24, 2009 9:20 PM

#10

Ni_Go_Zero_Ichi

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Jan 2009

136

I removed Final Fantasy VII from the list; after playing it extensively for the last couple weeks, I think I can safely say that while the game's plot is quite good, to call it philosophical would be something of a stretch.

Sep 13, 2009 4:08 AM

#11

akai-kitsune

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Oct 2008

539

Planescape Torment for PC.
A lot more philosophical than Metal Gear Solid 2 or Persona 3, you can believe that.

Sep 13, 2009 12:42 PM

#12

Ni_Go_Zero_Ichi

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Jan 2009

136

Is it an old game? Or could I still find it in stores?

Sep 14, 2009 4:05 AM

#13

akai-kitsune

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539

It was released in 1999... I think...
I'm pretty sure that you can't find it in stores. You can get it from amazon though.
There's also the option of downloading it, since you can't find it anywhere...

Sep 14, 2009 6:02 AM

#14

Pinguinus

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Aug 2009

akai-kitsune said:
Planescape Torment for PC.
A lot more philosophical than Metal Gear Solid 2 or Persona 3, you can believe that.

Seconding anything that comes from the ones mentioning Planescape Torment.

Also i would recommend TES III : Morrowind + Tribunal expansion.
It really isn't all that philosophical but i liked the concepts that went into that game (man made god, human abuse of power - they're ascendance and fall from godhood).

There are some interesting ones out there but i'll have to search for them.

Sep 25, 2009 12:15 PM

#15

racoontyfoon_v2

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Apr 2009

Are there any games that somehow contain philosophy in their gameplay instead of their plot? I think a medium like video games could be used for far more interesting things then just a good story that could also be done in anime for example.

Sep 25, 2009 9:08 PM

#16

Ni_Go_Zero_Ichi

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Like I said above, I think the gameplay of Chrono Cross could be considered to incorporate the philosophical themes expressed in the plot, albeit in a very subtle way. And MGS2 plays with your expectations of the game and of gaming itself.

Oct 7, 2009 10:11 AM

#17

ExistentialUFO

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Jul 2009

TOP 6 PHILOSOPHICAL GAMES

Fallout 2
Your actions are portrayed as morally ambiguous rather than good or bad, such as in KoTOR. Rather than the game judging your actions with a moral spectrum (e.g., light and dark side), societies in the games judge you. Sometimes they may even put a bounty on your head or hail you as a saint. Each society has its own ethics, so depending on the specific town, some actions may be condoned whilst others condemned. Rather than a rigid system defining your actions as good & bad, you have society to think of when committing an action. The reinforcer is society, NOT some sort of moral spectrum implemented into the game. The rigid moral dichotomy simply alienates the player's unique set of ethics.

Moreover, Fallout 2's Karma system does not indicate morality. It is more of a connotation for your current standing in a specific society. KoTOR's dichotomy of light and dark simply comes off as childish.

Planescape Torment
It delves into the themes of regret, consciousness, and so forth.TNO, "The Nameless One", is immortal due to a "crime" he committed long ago in The Planes, the setting. Each time he dies, he forgets his memory - awakening in a mortuary. He is essentially reborn losing his entire essence!

Sartre once said, "Existence precedes essence." Well, isn't it "essence that defines our existence"? We come into existence forlorn choosing our own being, yet our being (AKA "essence") is precarious, as evident of brain strokes the TNO's strange dilemma. Since our essence defines our existence, isn't losing one's essence (your knowledge of your family, parents, and so forth) tantamount to dying?

So, some of TNO's incarnations, essentially synonymous with Sartre's notion being & essence, have been cruel whilst others have been kind. It is strange meeting characters TNO has encountered in the past; many have vendettas towards his past incarnations while others revile him. TNO carries a notebook now, so you are "controlling" one of his present incarnations.

The game is text heavy and deals with many profound themes, so you will spend more time reading dialogue rather than actually playing. The prose and narrative is great, however.

Earthbound
Earthbound delves into these themes:
- Technological man vs spiritual man
- Aesthetic decisions
- Extreme hatred of capitalism
- Plays on American pop-culture
- Buddhist themes of self discovery and edification
- Subjectivity is the only weapon against objective evil:
- Definition and substance of humanity
- Anti-establishmentism
- Importance of childhood

Visit my blog if you want to read my friend's, Maher, essay on this topic. Link is on my profile. Be sure to open all tabs on Blog's homepage.

Killer 7
This is more of a political rather than philosophical piece. Granted, many people overlooked the message of the game. Suda 51 is a genius.

Here is a massive plot analysis courtesy of James Clinton Howell:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/gamecube/file/562551/38193

ICO
In How to Read Literature Like a Professor, Thomas C. Foster states, "Of all the fairy tales available to the writer, there's one that has more drawing power than any other, at least in the late twentieth century: Hansel and Gretel. Every age age has its own favorite stories, but the story of children lost and far from home has a universal appeal" (59).

ICO captures the spirit of this quote. Rather than focusing on replay value via cheap gimmicks, a plethora of extras (e.g., multiplayer), and so forth, ICO simply relies on the bare minimum. It uses a "minimalist technique" in order to convey its simple message. In a time of Ratchet and Clank and other overwhelming games, here comes a nice little gem that questions "high" expectations.

Deus Ex
A cyberpunk games encompassing a wide array of settings. The game starts with a prologue revealing a new disease, "The Gray Death", plunging the world into despair. Vaccine shipments are SUPPOSEDLY controlled by UNATCO (AKA "UN"), yet further into the game, things start to appear "different". Terrorist attacks are rampant, but you'll soon discover their true intent and reason.The game revolves around JC Denton's, the protagonist, involvement in the conspiracy. It uses many allusions to real-life "events and groups", such as The Bilderberg Conference. Philosophical themes are intertwined into this conspiracy; for example, questions about human nature are pervasive as evident by this scene:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COwfIhvRtNw&fmt=18

Ultimately, the game leaves it up to the player to formulate his own commentary from the events. In the end you have a choice to...

A) Plunge the world into a new dark age by destroying global communication networks, yet reveal the truth

B) Join forces with the Illuminati and influence world affairs from the background

C) Assimilate your mind with a super computer AI and rule the would as a benevolent dictator

Deus Ex does not condemn you for any of those choices with a moral spectrum implemented in the game's code.

ExistentialUFOOct 8, 2009 4:30 PM

Oct 7, 2009 11:13 AM

#18

Ni_Go_Zero_Ichi

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136

Well, those are all games that I'm dying to play. I'm already a little ways into Killer7, but trying to advance can be frustrating since your next objectives aren't always clear and the levels are labyrinthine. (Ironically, the on-rails walking mechanic actually makes it EASIER to get lost, and the fact that the map can't be bothered with showing your exact position in a given room doesn't help.) But at any rate, I'm already a fan of Suda 51, so I'll definitely push through it at some point. I'd be curious to know what you thought of No More Heroes? According to Suda himself, that game is to social issues what Killer7 is to political ones.

Well, KotOR is a Star Wars game, so you can't really hold having a black-and-white morality system against it. I mean, the Star Wars universe makes pretty clear distinctions between good and evil. What about other Bioware games, though? I'm vaguely considering getting Dragon Age...

I've already played Shadow of the Colossus (until I got stuck on one of the more frustrating bosses later in the game, anyway), and so am familiar with Fumito Ueda's minimalist style, and I love it. That game in particular wears its Zelda influence on its sleeve, but boils down the mechanics to their core and creates a stunning (and shockingly empty) world for the player to explore. I have Ico, but I haven't gotten around to playing it yet. Still, while I love Ueda's games and would certainly agree that they're artistic, emotional and beautiful, I'm not sure if I would call them "philosophical", per se. I mean, not all good art is necessarily philosophical, right?

I never thought of Earthbound as having an unusually deep story, but then again, I played it when I was 11, so if there was any hidden depth to it it probably went over my head at that time. I guess I should revisit it at some point.

As for Deus Ex, that's probably one of the games that I'm most curious to play at the moment. A good friend of mine, who has very discriminating taste in video games, basically hails Warren Spector as the Second Coming, so I know I should try it at some point. But what platform is the best to get it on? Mac? PC? PS2?

Oct 7, 2009 11:30 AM

#19

ExistentialUFO

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Jul 2009

Deus Ex is best on PC. The Ps2 version destroys many of the memorable scenes with CG cut-scenes and redesigned levels meant for a "one-way approach". For an example of how it destroys many of the scenes consult
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKp0DP1O4bs
&
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJegc9eEG8M (TURN ON ANNOTATIONS)

A game doesn't necessarily need a deep, sophisticated story in order to be philosophical. Granted, I see your point that ICO is more artistic rather than philosophically deep, but Shadow of the Colossus definitely applies as a philosophical piece - making you question your endeavor after slaying each colossus. It gives the mammoth colossi a "humanistic look" as they fall to their deaths; it makes the player question his pursuit as being hedonistic or justified. I'd switch ICO for Shadow of the Colossus. Good point!

I did not add No More Heroes because I haven't inputted at least 2 hours into it. I have beaten all those games but Fallout 2 (still playing it).

Here is my friend's essay on No More Heroes:
http://www.cosmicmaher.com/?p=18

My other friend also gave a sociological perspective which I will elaborate upon when I beat No More Heroes!

ExistentialUFOOct 8, 2009 4:32 PM

Oct 7, 2009 2:24 PM

#20

Ni_Go_Zero_Ichi

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Jan 2009

136

Alright, I'll probably try and track down a copy of Deus Ex for Mac (I'm having trouble with my Boot Camp recently). I assume the Mac version is identical to the PC version. Maybe Planescape Torment, too - did they make that for Mac?

I love Suda51, I really do, but I still can't make up my mind whether his games are brilliant artistic exercises filled with symbolism and social commentary, or whether he's just really, really eccentric. When you read interviews with him and stuff, he virtually never talks about any deeper meaning in his games - he doesn't even acknowledge that his games have any. On the contrary, he usually just says stuff like "I did this because it seemed like fun" or "we added that because we felt like it". I read a recent interview in which he said something to the effect of "fans like to analyze all the little details in Killer7. Granted, he could just be taking the Hideaki Anno/Cormac McCarthy approach of bullshitting everyone out of a combination of humility and simply wanting to have his art speak for itself. Of course, Hideaki Anno and Cormac McCarthy are notorious for their avoidance of the press, while Suda seems to enjoy conducting interviews with gaming press outlets at every possible opportunity. So, really, I'm stumped. Maybe he's an artistic genius and he just really hates the idea of sounding pretentious by talking about the meaning of his work. Or, maybe he's just batshit insane. (Well, he's batshit insane either way, the question is just whether he's trying to make any sort of profound statement also.)

Also, the description of Planescape Torment above reminded me of another game I've played a bit of that went totally under-the-radar and was criminally underrated by Western reviewers. Its name is Baroque, and it's a "roguelike" RPG, developed by STING (one of my favorite unsung developers) and published by Atlus for PS2 and Wii. The player starts off as an unnamed silent protagonist with no memory in a bizarre, post-apocalyptic landscape where a catastrophe known as "the Blaze" has laid waste to human civilization and left behind it only a dying, barren wasteland. As you explore the hub area, you meet other people who were once humans, but have been warped and twisted into bizarre and hideous forms, all uttering dense, cryptic and disturbing dialogue. Characters accuse you of committing some mysterious sin of unimaginable gravity, and thus being responsible for the Blaze. As you reach the edge of the town, an angel appears; he gives you a "holy gun", and instructs you to journey to the bottom level of the "Neuro Tower", where the rest of the game takes place. The plot is relayed in an extremely unconventional manner - you have to die in the right places to unlock new revelations about your past, and ultimately discover the truth. The game is definitely not for everyone - it's relentlessly weird, comprehending it is no easy task, it literally thrusts you into the story with no introduction or explanation, and the gameplay structure and difficulty are EXTREMELY hardcore and old-school: you have a vitality gauge that decreases continuously even when you're not doing anything, and dying will take away all your items, set you back to level 1, and send you back to the hub area. It requires a hell of a lot of patience to complete - I admit I've barely played it for a couple of hours - but it is extremely interesting and well off the beaten path, dealing with themes of guilt, identity and religion, with Gnostic imagery in particular being highly pervasive. For someone with a lot of time and patience, I believe the intriguing story, genuinely creepy atmosphere and soundtrack, and exceptionally good voice acting will make the game a worthwhile experience. I'll link the trailer/opening video to the game, (complete with voiceover by "The Major" Mary Elizabeth McGlynn,) which should give anyone who's curious a pretty good idea of what this game's about. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cu_nQjBq6dA

Ni_Go_Zero_IchiOct 7, 2009 11:56 PM

Oct 7, 2009 6:16 PM

#21

ExistentialUFO

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Jul 2009

Baroque sounds amazing! It actually reminds me of Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter. Each time you died, you would be given new cut-scenes in specific places on your new play-through.

Have you ever played Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne? I think I'll add it to #4 instead of ICO. The premise is simple: the "Conception" has occurred causing the the destruction of human civilization and release of demons (AKA "mythological creatures"). Every human is decimated except for a few sheltered inside a "special building" in Tokyo, Japan. Moreover, A "Vortex World", a red sphere, enshrouds Tokyo, Japan. It functions in determining who possesses the strongest Reason, philosophical school of thought on how the "new world" should be. You, the protagonist, have also been chosen by Lucifer to become a demon and gaining strength plus the ability to speak with demons. Later in the game, your three friends and another human have formed their own Reasons and gained the power of demons as a result. You, already being a demon and thus incapable of forming a reason, are able to follow a Reason's bare-bone philosophy, revert the world to its former self, ignore every reason equating to nothingness, or rebel against the indifference of the YHVH's "law of Conception & Vortex World" (i.g., every millennium or so a conception alongside a Vortex World occur) by joining forces with Lucifer. I will quote Wikipedia because it is very accurate on what each Kotowari ("reason") encompasses:

"Wikipedia" said:
The Reasons (Kotowari)

The Vortex World is merely a fetal stage of the world, created by the Conception in preparation for its eventual rebirth. For a person to create the new world, they must possess a powerful inner philosophy that encompasses a set of natural laws that the new world would be based upon: this is called a Reason (Kotowari in the original Japanese version).

The laws of the Vortex World dictate that it is forbidden for a demon to create a Reason; thus, most demons in the game follow one of the three Reasons created by key characters throughout the course of the game.

Shijima

"All at one with the world."

Shijima is a Reason based on stillness and oneness, influenced by Buddhism and the concept of Nirvana. It is a world of perfect harmony, where there is no 'self' whatsoever, and no passion to cause dissent, conflict and destruction. Individuality is eradicated, and replaced with a collective inner peace where everyone is equal to a god, all working together as cogs in the giant, stable machine that is the Universe. This Reason is most closely associated with the Law alignment of previous Shin Megami Tensei games. The Reason Shijima shares similarities with the philosophical beliefs of nihilism.

Ironically, it is fallen angels and beings who are feared who sides with this reason, like Eligor, Surt, and Mot.

Musubi

"I am the center of the world."

Musubi is a Reason based on solitude and isolation, where the Self is absolute. Every single person would live in his or her own independent world, completely sealed from any other living being. Using one's mind, a person could shape their world at will into their own personal paradise, living free from the unwelcome interference of others. This Reason is most closely associated with the Chaos alignment of previous Shin Megami Tensei games. The Reason Musubi closely resembles Rene Descartes' idea of solipsism, a philosophy of the solitary self which is based in individualism and solitude.

Yosuga

"The world only needs beautiful things."

Yosuga is a Reason based on elitism and survival of the fittest, where only the chosen elite would possess the right to live. The useless and weak elements of society would be purged from the world, leaving only the powerful and strong. Power is acknowledged as being the only thing of true worth, and only the strongest of the strongest would have the right to rule. This Reason is most closely associated with the Chaos alignment of previous Shin Megami Tensei games. The Reason Yosuga closely resembles Darwinism and can be seen as a type of social Darwinism.

Interestingly, the angelic castes, traditionally associated with Law, side with Chiaki against Shijima. Whether this is an effect of YHWH's absence or an indication of a systemic arrogance kindred to Chiaki's is unexplained.

As a demon, the main character is forbidden to create his own Reason. However, he can choose to defy the laws of the Vortex World and follow no Reason, which leads to either the "Neutral" which restores the world to the way it was before the game or "Demon" endings. By completing the optional Labyrinth of Amala dungeon in the "Maniax" version of the game, a sixth ending- "True Demon"- can be gained instead where Lucifer succeeds in shaping the main character in his image to help mount an attack on heaven.

I think the Wikipedia article does a great job explaining the Reasons, so I don't find the point in adding my own input.

ExistentialUFOFeb 28, 2012 10:30 PM

Oct 7, 2009 11:49 PM

#22

Ni_Go_Zero_Ichi

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Jan 2009

136

Wow, that does sound pretty intriguing. I've been wanting to check out a SMT game for some time now, but I just don't know which one to start with. I wish they would bring the original SMT to the US via Virtual Console (it's already out in Japan), that way I could play it for a low price and get a taste of the series. Probably not gonna happen, though, since that would basically mean that Atlus would have to go to the tremendous trouble of translating it for what's probably not going to be a particularly sizable profit, and that's IF Nintendo even wants the game on the US VC anyway (NoA tends to be pretty unfathomable - scratch that, UNREASONABLE - these days. Yeah, I'm still mad about Fatal Frame 4, and Disaster: Day of Crisis, and ASH: Archaic Sealed Heart, and Soma Bringer, and Mother 3, and...)

Feb 12, 2010 6:00 AM

#23

OVanBruce

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Nov 2009

Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei...

very fun in a dark way with all of criticism to polithics and a lot of things...

veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery interesting...

Apr 5, 2010 11:38 AM

#24

360ken

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Feb 2010

262

http://www.gamespot.com/features/6240211/index.html

If you are interested about moral/philosophical choices in videogames, that's a good thought-provoking read. I read it like a year ago, and what they say is true. Games like Bioshock and inFAMOUS are probably as close to real-life moral choices as you are going to get, but in the end they are too black and white. To kill or not to kill? No options that would be in real life, they are games after all, games are based around choices.

Apr 14, 2010 3:55 PM

#25

Ni_Go_Zero_Ichi

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Jan 2009

136

Well, I think the issue of moral choices in video games is slightly different from that of philosophy in games (the former relates to a specific aspect of game design, the latter more generally to game subject matter) though they do overlap somewhat. In regard to moral choices, Alpha Protocol allegedly tries a different take on the notion of moral choices, by forcing the player to make less clear-cut decisions, the consequences of which are not always obvious. (That's what it attempts to do, anyway, though having not played it and only briefly glanced at some of the previews, I can't honestly tell you whether it succeeds.) But my point is, I doubt Alpha Protocol is in any way "philosophical". Moral choices in games and games as art are both legitimate and interesting discussions, but my thinking in this thread was more along the lines of discussing games with overtly philosophical subject matter.

May 17, 2010 9:15 PM

#26

Ni_Go_Zero_Ichi

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Jan 2009

136

So today I was just minding my own business, playing Tactics Ogre: The Knight of Lodis for GBA (got it for a good price at an amazing used DVD/game store - it's a pretty good game IF you are a SRPG diehard with a LOT of patience) when all of a sudden the characters start launching into a debate about personal responsibility as the cost of freedom, the ethics of neutrality, and several other meaty topics. Yasumi Matsuno, you rascal you.

Jul 27, 2010 11:58 AM

#27

Foolness

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Jul 2010

The problem with philosophical video games as with any mediums is that it's all about what makes it closer to an actual real world philosophy lesson rather than whether there's truly philosophy in it so I hope you guys don't perceive badly of my choices, especially the hentai ones included.

To clarify, something like FF7 may have a thinner plot but it is more on par with Xenogears than Final Fantasy Tactics philosophically speaking because the elements of "what if we forgot who we are and assumed an alter ego?" is strongly chained to why we explore philosophy in the first place and why it isn't just a tangible lesson that we memorize and talk about as if it's an armchair issue.

At the same time, personal philosophy is also problematic in that sometimes you can't differentiate it's quality due to ignorance of the history of philosophy so there arrives a point where it's the games that have stronger more blatant symbols of philosophy seemingly are superior in their philosophical elements that they can be considered better philosophical games.

Again, to narrow it down, think of the philosophical subject of FF Tactics and you may see many more clearer allusions to philosophy than FF7 because the character actually "ages" in chapters and the whole political background plus the ending makes it all seem like the battle was bigger than two people...and yet FFT is actually less of a philosophical video game because where the little details that makes one doubt themselves and explore their choices...where the little things about what each of the protagonist should and shouldn't do...all is lost because in reality the plot answers it for you.

This is in no way saying FFT doesn't have substance or a better explored story than FF7 but when it comes down to the little details...FFT merely tantalizes it's philosophy but never really gives you anything to think about as soon the answer is made for you and the protagonist becomes no more than a Rogue-Like Tactical War Machine that ends up becoming more of a clog in the destiny of things rather than a thinker where as in FF7 even from the beginning what could possibly make it more cinematic is that there are multiple layers of events happening all in one sequence and still the protagonist has an inner struggle he needs to carry on his back.

Still there are exemptions to this rule but this is the difficulty of rationalizing one philosophical video game over another: it's all about what it made you consider and yet it is for this very same reason that people with more knowledge of philosophy can get it wrong because instead of experiencing the philosophy of a videogame, they are often looking for it "while trying to enjoy the game" and in that sense there develops a battle between the quality and enjoyment of a game mixed with what is really philosophical about it.

A good example of a philosophical game that one ups FFT's premise is Kartia for the PSX but because the tactical aspects of Kartia is less developed, the story is shorter and less "encyclopedic" and finally because it's not Final Fantasy... the philosophical elements of Kartia doesn't appear as deep as FFT but in reality what isn't as deep in Kartia is the "philosophical reason for fighting" in battles and not really it's philosophy.

That is in FFT for every grind out battles there are, there are battles that before, during and after you finish it creates an epic over-arching feeling of conspiracy where as in Kartia a character may simply be pouring a cup of coffee or musing to themselves...and yet it is in these very "un-epic" details that the philosophy rises the most because instead of treating philosophy like a widely arcing constantly turning battle of political morality, Kartia challenges the gamer's philosophy by asking the little questions but not providing the big answers.

That is, if someone say changes their hair style, in Kartia this has meaning like it has some meaning to many people who choose their hairstyles and in that simple change of choice it creates a different philosophy in said character and it transforms into a small ripple that later on becomes a big wave in the over-arching plot even though nothing special happened and thus it makes you think of the philosophical ramifications of such a small exterior act.

In FFT however, all the clothe changes, all the deaths, all the suspense...they later become answered and while this may add to the more epic political battle going on in Tactics, it also makes it seem that these characters have very little responsibility outside of the main arc. It is comparable to another SRPG fan favorite Fire Emblem in that the character may have back stories and there may be an over-arching political plot but the characters live in a bubble and it's like there are no side issues disturbing them until the plot makes it so like with adding a playable character to save. (I've heard of a bonus scene in the PSP remake that adds something similar to this with the beginning female knights but I haven't played through it and the scene felt like it was so short that it was unlikely to etch much of a philosophical thought)

As for the exemptions to FFT, Shin Megami Tensei 1 and 2 are my first choices that follow the same pace as FFT but are more philosophical.

However in order to say they are more philosophical while following a similar Rogue-like character pattern, it is important to differentiate the differences because SMT has less of a plot and the first problem with philosophical games is that we often think philosophy = better plot but often it can be more "identity exploring".

In this case, for those who know both series, this comparison is problematic because there is a "better plot developed" cousin of SMT in Persona but Persona in my opinion is on par with the philosophical level of FFT and that's why I didn't want to mention that. (I'd also like to point out that while I haven't played Nocturne, from the premise it seems less philosophical than either SMT 1 and 2)

Then there's the different in genres and the difference in perception of SMT 1 from SMT 2. (1 is often heralded as having the more interesting plot but IMO I prefer SMT 2)

Finally there's the difference between how the different occult nature of Tactics and SMT are presented.

Lots of baggage that I don't think I can fully explore in a topic like this but bottomline why FFT cannot overcome the hump of my standard for a philosophical game is due to the fact that the protagonist's power was never "addressed".

I have deeper reasons for why FFT is less philosophical but as I've hopefully presented above, there are tons of baggage to be brought up before those can be addressed and this shallower reason is easy to mention not only because both games are blatant with this difference but it touches on another more similar but more philosophical counterpart to FFT: Tactics Ogre

Now as far as story goes, I found that many more feel FFT has a more interesting plot than Tactics Ogre so again the dichotomy of great story = philosophical vs. great story does not equal philosophical rears it's head again.

That's why it's easier to narrow this down to the protagonist's power. Despite being clones of each other, TO addresses the protagonist's power and by doing so not only are the three endings more in line with challenging one's morality of politics but despite being a less developed story than FFT, TO actually transfers a philosophical choice to the gameplay. (Minor spoilers: Depending on your choice in the game, there are characters that can die if you are too powerful)

I hope the above points can help explain my choices below because believe me, some of these games may not only seem like having a poor plot to many of you but the hentai ones especially may make you feel that I'm just trying to rationalize my perversity but I truly feel despite the shallowness of some of these games' plot, there are philosophical elements into these games that surpasses some of the choices given thus far:

1) Radical Dreamers (SNES) - More philosophical variant of Chrono Cross in my opinon.

For spoilers see this FAQ: http://www.gamefaqs.com/snes/579136-radical-dreamers/faqs/11538

2) Vandal Hearts 1 and 2 - Although more linear than TO and another RPG favorite, Suikoden - this is more philosophical from the perspective of a bandit because in my opinion the blood and songs and dark grittiness of the graphics really makes it seem like you are a struggling outcast rather than a pampered "Tom Cruise-like" super-character.

3) Brigandine - Although the plot was more developed in the Japanese only Grand Edition, I felt the original was more powerful philosophically in that it was never answered who the main antagonist was and how he was defeated...only that in war resources are consumed and there are shadows behind all shadows.

4) Discipline: Record of the Crusade (hentai) - I'm not sure that in an age of guro people will find the extreme scenes of this game philosophical but what shocked me with this game was not just the extreme scenes but really the philosophical battle between a rich and the ordinary and the struggle, resources and mindsets of both sides encaptured in two beings: one a vengeful protagonist and another a "near-invincible" superior.

5) Nocturnal Illusion/Divi-Dead (hentai) - Death and life

6) Critical Point (hentai) - choices

7) Live a Live (SNES) - good and evil

8) Fate/Stay Night (hentai) - good and evil

9) Super Robot Wars F/Final/R - people prefer the Alpha or the OG series and I don't understand Japanese so I'm just judging from the english translated FAQs but I felt the "invincible-ness" of the later series downplayed many of the dangers of the original finale. SRW R (GBA) is easier to acquire as there is at least a fan translation that changes the menu into english but the dialogue remains Japanese. R is also much more stand alone as F is a remake of the 4th SRW for the SNES.

10) Hell Night (PSX)/Clock Tower "1" (Snes/PSX) Silent Hill - Mind control/psychosis

11) Battle for Wesnoth Descent into Darkness (PC) - power

12) 3rd World Farmer - suffering (Free @ http://www.3rdworldfarmer.com/)

13) A Force More Powerful Game - Non-Violent Protest

14) Shogun: Total War/Medieval: Total War (PC) - War tactics

15) Ogre Battle (Snes) - Power/evil (as long as you don't try to circumvent around the gameplay)

16) X-Com (DOS) - Paranoia

17) Kengo 1,2,3 (PS2) - Mortality of humans

FoolnessJul 27, 2010 12:02 PM

Aug 11, 2010 5:14 AM

#28

ckam

Offline

Aug 2008

3906

Ico and Shadow of the Colossus tend to be my "philosophical" games because rather than telling the player what the creators believe in, it shows the player instead through the environments and boss battles.

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Feb 10, 2011 6:58 PM

#29

Ni_Go_Zero_Ichi

Offline

Jan 2009

136

I imagine some of you guys will get a kick out of this: http://ideas.livejournal.com/18322.html

If this is what he thought of Chrono Trigger, imagine what he has to say about Chrono Cross!

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