Is Swim Swim's Actions Justifiable?

Victorian-Doll said:


Damn, do I hate those anime stereotypes or whatever they are called.
Kills with no emotions - sociopath.

neonie said:
If you still feel she's justified after this episode. I have no words for you.

abechau1 said:

But what bothers me is that this episode clearly shows fav is way more evil then swim swim - He wanted Swim Swim to be his new master and turned his back on her by exploiting her weakness to ripple and snow white.

neonie said:


I don't think he actually wanted Swim Swim to be his new master, considering the last part of your statement. I think he was annoyed by her, to be honest.

sanlei said:

Swim Swim has no motivations, she just follows her, for fav boring, order to be a ruler and isnt interested in fav's games. Like how she was following her daily order of doin' homework instead of listenin' to fav's stuff.

rikuhod said:


Sorry but you are wrong. if you go crazy you can't control yourself. Instincts protect the mind, if people don't rely on instincts their mind goes brain dead. If you try to surpass your instincts you simply ruin your mind. When you are angry you release anger. Like we all do. What if you feel anger 24 hours/7 days per week. How can you contain anger like this?

The only way to stop is to get psychological comfort, but how can she get it in situation like that. This way get

When people are desperate they need help, if they don't get it the mind turns off reasoning and rely on instincts otherwise it would go dead.

I suffer from depression and I am aware that I cannot fully control myself. I have outburst of rage, I cannot stop. I may not kill people, but I am not fully capable of controlling myself. If I had even slightly more damaged mind I don't know what I might become. I am trying to surpass anger, but I am not fully able to control it.

Snow White did not manage to resist insanity. She relied on others this gave her comfort. Swim Swim being introvert could not get attached to people that much and could not get comfort this way. Plus despite this one tragedy Koyuki had pretty good life and this is the first time she witnessed true desperation and pain, but she is clearly on path to insanity too. Before that she was type of the most successful person in life that achieved all dreams, same with Sister Nana. This is why for the whole time she was person with the most psychological comfort, pp like that are safe from depression, or anger. People like that are social and want to share happiness with others.

unless its extremely strong.

There is a reason why poorest countries suffer the biggest number of wars. Lack of psychological comfort leads to insanity.

PinkLightnan said:
SPOILER WARNING FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T SEEN EPISODE 11 YET

I would say her actions are justifiable. Killing was the most effective way for her to survive. Let's go over each of her kills.

Ruler- Chances are, Ruler could have very well screwed Swim Swim over if things weren't going well. I wouldn't put it past Ruler to potentially kill Swim Swim if the situation demanded it. Ruler also looked after herself and most likely would have thrown the others in her group under the bus if a plan isn't executed perfectly (example trying to give herself 1/2 of the earned candy).

Weiss Winterprison- At this point, there were still more than 8 magical girls alive. Since Weiss Winterprison was regarded as a really strong fighter, she posed a huge threat to Swim Swim and her group. In order to increase her and her group's chance at survival, eliminating the strongest foes is their best chance at surviving. Weiss was also easy to trap due to Sister Nana's trusting naturethus making her an easier target than some of the others.

Top Speed- Swim Swim's main reason for killing Top Speed was probably due to the fact that she was distracted during the chaos and was an easy target. Also, killing her brought the number of girls down to 8 which at the time, was the number to reach in order to survive. Killing her would have normally guaranteed Swim Swim and the rest of her surviving group's survival. Also, it is highly unlikely that Swim Swim knew that Top Speed was pregnant.

Hardgore Alice- Once the number of magical girls allowed to be alive went down to 4, Hardgore Alice became the number one threat due to being practically unkillable when transformed. By killing Hardgore Alice while untransformed, she killed the biggest threat to her and her group's survival.

Tama- While sad, Swim Swim's logic for killing Tama, her last remaining ally make sense as well. Tama found out Swim Swim's real identity, putting Swim Swim into a risky situation, if Tama were to accidentally let Swim Swim's identity slip. It was also shown that Swim Swim didn't want to kill Tama, but had to for her own protection, through Swim Swim tearing up after killing her.


In essence, Swim Swim is just trying to survive. She isn't psychotic, or pure evil, or sadistic. She just wants to live, and in a life or death situation where you are pretty much forced to kill people to survive, killing others is the only surefire way to ensure your own survival.

kidlat020 said:


you can prevent yourself from going crazy though. you let yourself went crazy. again not justifiable.

PinkLightnan said:


With all due respect PinkLightnan, that's bullshit. Obviously, you would think her actions were justifiable if you use the exact same logic that she used to reach those conclusions. What's being searched for here, in a question that probably should have put the qualifier "morally," is not if she went around swinging a halberd just to get her jollies, but rather, if they were right.

Of course, I agree that a compromise in identity is incentive enough to execute someone. But that's if the death game is still on, and she very well knew it was over since she saw twin girl dead and Tama was soaked in delightful Ocean Spray Cranberry Juice. Plus, there two fundamental flaws with her actions in episode 11.

One, she valued sovereignty over friendship (or at least subordination, like you don't have to literally kill everyone who sees you since if you were that wary and trigger-happy, then you weren't fit to be a ruler anyways. A ruler knows how to keep their underlings in check at a comfortable yet maintained position. Otherwise, you might as well kill all your people because any single one of them could backstab you (case in point: RIP Ruler). Also don't cry if you had the gall to murder them in the first place, suck it up).

PinkLightnan said:


Second, her fixation on exactly and only what Ruler has said or would say shows a lack of moral development, since she has built her beliefs on the sole limited definition of another. It's like strictly following the law, even though the law doesn't always know what's right (both morally and survival-wise). You can't really justify your actions when they were never really your actions to begin with but rather an enactment of someone else's will, unless you can justify why you acted as such. And her reason was...to become like Ruler. Wow. Amazing. Inspiring. Makes sense. So with Tama's death alone, we can see clear flaws in SwimSwim's moral compass, but who are we kidding, practically nobody likes the bitch girl anyways.

Also, everyone wants to live. Doesn't make casual murder justifiable.

MrJc said:



Just funny when you think that if Nemu never said those things to Swim Swim she wouldn't of killed Ruler and who knows how things would've turned out.

also tama did nothing wrong D:

RayAdha said:
No, she is an embodiment of pure evil. Someone needs to rape her

RayAdha said:
No, she is an embodiment of pure evil. Someone needs to rape her

Styraxx said:
After ep 11 idk real if i still cud suport Swim Swim ackt.
Tama was so dedicated and loyal to her and she kill her just like that.
All other girls she kill was in same way her ,, eanemys'' in this death game.
So killing them clever and effective way like Swim do was for me justifiable same like killing during the war it;s not murder.
I even admired that in her age she plan and perform all so craftily
But Tama omg she was her ally and subordinate who was with her from start.
Tama safe her from Cranberry, and Swim kill Tama just becous not want any 1 know her human form.
So for me this last kill it;s not justifiable at all

RayAdha said:
No, she is an embodiment of pure evil. Someone needs to rape her

neonie said:


Waiting for that H-Doujin.

beast_regards said:
She have understandable reasons (child, easy to be influenced, influenced by wrong person, caught in Battle Roayale mechanism where she actually needs to kill that drew on already lack of emotions etc.)
But she is not justified. Justified usually implies higher moral she simply doesn't have.

rikuhod said:


no you can't if the amount of stress is too big. The thing is we all react to insanity in different way, some go savage, some go mind dead. Unless somebody help them they would not be able to escape. There is a reason why insane asylums keep people out, because they cannot control themselves.

By your logic Ripple actions would not be justified too, she hurt everybody that made her angry. She decided to kill Swim Swim, cus she was hurt. She simply wants to ease her stress and pain. She is the same. Pain is ruining her mind and she needs sth to ease it, as she does not know any other ways she picks this.

rikuhod said:

I understand your point, but we need to understand that everybody on her place would act in the same way, so its not right to judge her.

Dangst4r said:
*spoilers of course*

With all due respect PinkLightnan, that's bullshit. Obviously, you would think her actions were justifiable if you use the exact same logic that she used to reach those conclusions. What's being searched for here, in a question that probably should have put the qualifier "morally," is not if she went around swinging a halberd just to get her jollies, but rather, if they were right.

Of course, I agree that a compromise in identity is incentive enough to execute someone. But that's if the death game is still on, and she very well knew it was over since she saw twin girl dead and Tama was soaked in delightful Ocean Spray Cranberry Juice. Plus, there two fundamental flaws with her actions in episode 11.

One, she valued sovereignty over friendship (or at least subordination, like you don't have to literally kill everyone who sees you since if you were that wary and trigger-happy, then you weren't fit to be a ruler anyways. A ruler knows how to keep their underlings in check at a comfortable yet maintained position. Otherwise, you might as well kill all your people because any single one of them could backstab you (case in point: RIP Ruler). Also don't cry if you had the gall to murder them in the first place, suck it up).

Second, her fixation on exactly and only what Ruler has said or would say shows a lack of moral development, since she has built her beliefs on the sole limited definition of another. It's like strictly following the law, even though the law doesn't always know what's right (both morally and survival-wise). You can't really justify your actions when they were never really your actions to begin with but rather an enactment of someone else's will, unless you can justify why you acted as such. And her reason was...to become like Ruler. Wow. Amazing. Inspiring. Makes sense. So with Tama's death alone, we can see clear flaws in SwimSwim's moral compass, but who are we kidding, practically nobody likes the bitch girl anyways.

Also, everyone wants to live. Doesn't make casual murder justifiable.

rikuhod said:


Koyuki wants to have a word with you

kidlat020 said:


Children are not capable of logical thinking.

rikuhod said:


You didn't say, "Every child." You said, "Every Body."

rikuhod said:

Children are not capable of logical thinking. Before the age of 9/11+ they can not develop logical thinking, or at least its very limited. Koyuki is 14. They can only function through things they memorise, or are influenced by. Also children being smaller and more ignorant of the world, always are terrified of things that might kill them more. They are more

Besides Koyuki before the game had the most happy time in her life, making her the most mentally fullfiled and sane. She was the most happy person on Earth. Because of that even if things she encountered where horrid, she still had strong mental protection because of these happy times.

Ripple cus of traumas she had, her mind started to rely on instincts to protect it. The way she beaten others. Instincts protect sanity, because of that we rely on them. It's not her fault.

The fault are people who do not help her.

In the end its the same as parents starving their child to death and child dying because of that. It's not child fault of dying, it's fault of people that did not offer any help.

Djidji said:

What she did was justifiable in the sense that you can find a justification about why she did it, because she did it logically every time, she had her reasons to.
But that doesn't make her actions forgivable nor approved.

PinkLightnan said:
Top Speed- Swim Swim's main reason for killing Top Speed was probably due to the fact that she was distracted during the chaos and was an easy target. Also, killing her brought the number of girls down to 8 which at the time, was the number to reach in order to survive. Killing her would have normally guaranteed Swim Swim and the rest of her surviving group's survival. Also, it is highly unlikely that Swim Swim knew that Top Speed was pregnant.

Dangst4r said:


Well yes, if we are saying justifiable as in can be given a motive, then sure it was justifiable. But then practically everything is justifiable and the question is pointless. It takes pure randomness to lose complete justification, and humans can never achieve that. From basic needs like survival to even seeking the concept of "randomness," everything an individual would do has justification. She would have to have had an arm spasm that wiped out over a 1/4 the cast to be that degree of un-justifiable, which is basically impossible and abuses the word "justifiable." Like why have a justifiable argument at all if everything worth justifying is by default justified?
(another silly example if you wanted:
In school if a teacher asked "Are you purple (a dumb question yes, but relevant nonetheless)? Justify your answer/Explain" and "yes because mommy said I could be anything I wanted to be and I want to be purple" was an acceptable answer just because she spat something out. Dumb.)

Instead, a better scope for the question (that could actually lead to real discussion that isn't semantics) is actually whether or not her actions were appropriate, which like I've said before, are not.

Also to the argument of they're just children in the middle of a death match, they won't think clearly, and all they use is instinct. Well wonderful, I guess since we can't really define mental maturity, we can excuse everyone under the age of 25 (or 30 for good measures) of crime because their brains have yet to fully develop in all areas. And fine, say their immediate concern was instinct. Then fuck Tama and the twins from the beginning, they're just more liabilities and removing them would bring you closer to the end goal. Even if SwimSwim could have manipulated them, their purpose would be effectively null as soon as the count dipped to 10, and she could have wiped them out and be under the predetermined 8 magical girl count. It's clear that SwimSwim is using some comprehensible, calculative logic in her actions by what she says and her emotions; they just are not what is justifiable (and that partially is, in fact, BECAUSE she is morally undeveloped and still growing, but that is not an excuse to the question. Perhaps if it said "Is SwimSwim's Actions Justifiable for her Age/Situation/Circumstances?" But on a universal scale, her actions are reprehensible and muddled).

Not that I'm hating on the girl just to hate or out of disdain, I actually feel bad for her after killing Tama and seeing her hints of regret, but as I have discussed in both posts, her mentality is too rigidly flawed. While I'd love to see them all be happy, that didn't happen, Alice and TopSpeed are dead, and I'm not a lolicon; so I see no reason in pretending like she's a misunderstood saint. Perhaps what would be more fun is seeing if Ripple's idea of revenge is justifiable, since she's a bit more everyday human.

fateoffate said:
People still think Ruler is just an abusive figure it seems.
Too bad we don't get the sidestory about how caring Ruler is to her subjects (after verbal abuse, of course)
She is a tsundere and extremely strict. She is even strict to herself.

Djidji said:


Well, arguments usualy are due to a sementic definition whose is different for the two parts, creating a misunderstanding. ^^
My point was her reasoning sounds way more logical than sentimental. It's more a "She did it because of..." than a "She just felt like it". Thus I found her actions justifiable because I though "That makes sense" with the information they give us.

The topic also start as "Is Swim Swim's Actions Justifiable?", but if it would have been rephrased as "Is Killing Justifiable?", everyone may not keep the same stance.
If it's just about Swim Swim, it's difficult to give a convincing answer as long as we don't know the possible reasons/her state of mind explaining why she act that way. :/
At least, her last action can't be excused by the game.

neonie said:


sry my mistake, i meant that it can't be helped

kidlat020 said:
@VDZ in war, there is no right. only those who are left.

Victorian-Doll said:
@VDZ So according to you, those who died in game are fine, but killing Swim Swim outside the game is the worst sin?

Victorian-Doll said:
Well, you know, Alice was also a little girl, whose father killed her mother but she didn't go around killing everyone.

Victorian-Doll said:
All the girls had lives outside the game and wanted to survive but weren't as cruel as Swim Swim was.

Victorian-Doll said:
I find Ripple's actions JUSTIFIABLE and she did something all the girls should have done forever ago.

This is a nice-sounding quote, but rather useless when people actually find themselves in a state of war. Surely there can be ethics even on the battlefield? The alternative would be to find everything justifiable if there really is no 'right' on the battlefield. Law of war is a thing in real life and it exists to prevent unnecessary cruelty and bloodshed even in a situation where people are fighting for their lives. When the participants have no say in joining the conflict, as was the case here, you cannot blame them for participating, but you can certainly judge them by their conduct during the conflict. (For a clear example in the show, Calamity Mary's conduct was definitely not morally acceptable even in a situation like this.)