| The Evangelion threads here on this site are very disappointing because everyone simply states their opinion and leaves. There is no actually discussion and almost all of the points made are mindless with no constructive points made. So it is logical that there should be a thread for the intelligent people to discuss the show and where the average person would not show up. Lastly, before the discussion goes on, I would like to lay down a few rules that are mostly self-explanatory. Rules: 1. Post intelligent ideas that pertain to the topic(s) being discussed. Since there are many topics in Evangelion, there will no doubt be multiple conversations. 2. Use concrete evidence (such as quoting from the script or using screenshots) to back up your point on debatable issues but they are not required for the rather obvious. 3. Stay on topic. It would be best not to get this thread bogged down in arguing over the Christain religion as many threads on the internet do. Any random posts will be asked to be ignored, asked to be removed, or reported. 4. This is Evangelion and not Lain. So what happens is not highly relative and despite being very confusing, it is much more concrete then you think. The meaning behiend the events is an entirely different story. Again when you are arguing over the events, follow the 2nd rule. 5. Be open-minded, respect the views of others, and try to be civil. This is a thread that talks about everything in the Evangelion Universe. The manga, the series, the movies, and the new rebuild moveis. Since this is the philosophy club, it would be best to focus on the themes rather on concrete details such as what the new Evangelion statues look like or the music (with the exception of the music relating to the themes). The best sources are obviouslly Neon Genesis Evangelion itself and I would reccommend a rewatch to anyone who wants to be active in this thread (it should be mandatory but there is no way to enforce that). When you are rewatching it, be extremely observent and would be best that notes are taken. Outside sources are reccomended too but don't rely completely upon them. The best internet sources are Eva Geeks and The Evangelion Discussion on Anime News Network. In addition to watch the series, those two sources should also be studied because they do clear up a lot of question marks about the events. Of the ANN thread, it is really long and copied and pasting the entire thing onto a word document is over 250 pages long. Also Eva Geeks also sucks out a lot of your time. A few topics of discussion: 1. What does Evangelion mean to you? This topic will probably bring up what seems like unrelated posts into the thread and should be for anyone who hasn't already posted something in this thread yet if you don't want to jump straight into one of ongoing discussions. For the people already here, following up on the post would be most welcoming and 2. What was Anno's intent? 3. The last scene of The End of Evangelion? 4. Why is Shinji/Asuka hated so much? This is probably one of the most divided topics in all of anime, so try and remain civil about it. Also try to avoid what happened to the discussion on ANN where a complete breakdown of communication happened and it practically disolved into camps forming and no one listening to each other. 5. How Evangelion is a deconstruction of a mecha show. Trip_83's comments from the ANN discussion would be a good place to start. Hope the introductory post was clear and right. If anyone has anything that they want to change with this post, the rules, and some of the topics, just send me a message. Obviously, no one wants a debate of the rules to happen. Lastly, this club is great because all of the mindless people have been weeded out. More topics like this should be posted on other shows so an actual discussion will happen. |
| "In the Beginning, the creative energy radiates from within." - No, no. That's Lame. Sounds like something out of a Jodorowsky comic. The Tokusyu Manga Club - Features alternative comics/avant-garde comics/outsider comics/psychdelic comics/surrealistic comics/underground comics + La Nouvelle Manga (part of Alternative). If I'm here, its because I have nothing better to do. |
Pierre_Bezukhov said: 2. Use concrete evidence (such as quoting from the script or using screenshots) to back up your point on debatable issues but they are not required for the rather obvious . This is a rather bad rule, what sence does it make quoting the character, or screenshots? It doesn't really interfere with the discussion, sorryI can't put it in words, don't have so much experience with english. Pierre_Bezukhov said: The Evangelion threads here on this site are very disappointing because 1. What does Evangelion mean to you? This topic will probably bring up what seems like unrelated posts into the thread and should be for anyone who hasn't already posted something in this thread yet if you don't want to jump straight into one of ongoing discussions. For the people already here, following up on the post would be most welcoming and Nothing particular, just interesting story, there was nothing new for me Pierre_Bezukhov said: 2. What was Anno's intent? Making money >_> Pierre_Bezukhov said: 3. The last scene of The End of Evangelion? Ah yes, that was beautiful, the self destruction of humanity, the powerslavery always leads to that. And the last scene could be intepreted as new Adam & Eve. The rejection of: instrumentality,the united consciousness and choosing inviduality |
| I don't know how to make "spoiler" tags or to link screenshots/videos, so I'll simply not do any of it and plainly state my opinion and then see if other opinions can bring changes to my own. So here goes. For me, NGE was a turning point in my "personnal progress". I always had a problem socializing with others, scared of being hurt and laughed at I was. But then, I saw Shinji, thought of how much a wuss he was and everything. Later on, and especially in the two last episodes, I realized that Shinji was me. In every single flaws he had, every time he screamed, I saw myself. And that's about when I realized it was about damn time I woke up and stoped acting tough and really become tough. I won't explain all the changes it brought to my life but let's say it's major. Then, it changed the way I wrote my novel (cuz yes, I write). Instead of just writing a story about psychology and phylosophy, I decided to do like Anno and write about myself using a lot of different charachters/situations. SO yeah, that's that. Here's a little analysis I had about four of the main characters. Firstly, the world revolves around Shinji since we are actually folowing him in the story. What he sees is what we see. (of course there are other viewpoints, but Shinji is without a doubt the main). Considering that, the three other characters (Rei, Misato and Asuka) each represent something very specific to Shinji. Rei, being is mother reincarnate, represents his past, the confort of what he has known and regression. Misato represents his present self, the one who fears everything, who depsises himself and who longs for everyone's support. Then come Asuka, who represents (guess what) his future, because it is scary, enigmatic (this was in the second half of the End of Evangelion if I recall correctly) and always prone at bringing him more pain. But, at the last scene of the movie, only Shinji and Asuka are left. Why? Misato is dead and giant white Rei's (Lilith) got her head sliced up in the background. They are the only ones left. But Shinji still fears what's in front of him : a world full of pain and loneliness. He wants to erase it. He tries to kill Asuka. But she gives him a little reminder that not everything is bad. Shinji bursts in tears and Askua looks at him, despicably. She then says "kimochi warui" (disgusting), probably speaking of him being on top of her, him touching her, him crying on her face and/or his action/attitude he just had. Alright, now, why Shinji and Asuka are hated so much. Personnaly, I didn't hate them and rather referred to them a lot. But then, it's understandable : they WERE despicalbe all way through and I actually believe this to be intended. They didn't have this charachter growth that was shown only in the End of Evangelion and the very last episode. Most people probably couldn't refer to them and simply stayed stuck at the "they suck" part of the story. And thats about all I had to say about the topics proposed. Here are some random facts! Eva 00 (Rei)-Eva 01 (Shinji)-Eva 02 (Asuka) = Past-Present-Future Eva 00, where 00 resembles the infinite symbol and where there is seemingly an infinite amount of "Rei". Ikari Shinji translates for Anger (hatred) Truth (genuiness). The AT field stands for what separates us from everyone else, stops the outside from coming inside but also the inside from going outside. Also, if someone knows why there are 7 eyes on Seele's mask, well, I'd like to know ^.^ |
 |
Waza said: Also, if someone knows why there are 7 eyes on Seele's mask, well, I'd like to know ^.^ Well their symbol is Adams mask, and seven is considered the "holy" or "great" number in many cultures. I'm not sure but probably thats the case. |
| I want to note few points: Angels- What is an Angel? In religion angels are creatures that are more than humans, but at the same time less than them. More-because of their spiritual power and "pureness" (The AT Field could symbolise this), less-because of their lack of free will. So are Angels in NGE intelegent or not? I think they are ,at least some of them, but still they follow the same routine. Angels are variations of human evolution. Have you of Australopithecus? They were a branch of homo, so basically two variatons of human evolution existed at the same time, but Australopithecus went extinct. It's hard to believe that they just died away, it could be that they and our ancestors started killing each over but they lost. I'm trying to say that this is similar. Evangelion- Evangelions are copys of Angel, artificial humans and artificial gods of sorts. They represent humanitys god complex issue. As gods-By creating the idea of god- a thing that should be worshiped, should be aproached with awe and respect -was created a sort of new goal, a thing that should be reached, becoming or creating and controling god. Even now humans tend to play god. As artificial humans-the interesting part was that ,despite being man-made, to create artficial human was needed an actual human's soul as a core and a pilot to make it move-soul and mind of Evangelion. |
ComedianJul 23, 2009 11:17 PM
Pierre_Bezukhov said: Also, if someone knows why there are 7 eyes on Seele's mask, well, I'd like to know ^.^ I'd like to come back to this thread when more time permits, but for now, I can offer my first impression on this. There are various religions/beliefs that hold the number seven to be divine or have some divine significance, but just by reading how your sentence was constructed, the first thing that jumped to mind was The Seven Seals found in the book of Revelations. |
MauvaiseFoiApr 15, 2010 11:51 PM
There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in. |
Comedian said: I want to note few points: Angels- What is an Angel? In religion angels are creatures that are more than humans, but at the same time less than them. More-because of their spiritual power and "pureness" (The AT Field could symbolise this), less-because of their lack of free will. So are Angels in NGE intelegent or not? I think they are ,at least some of them, but still they follow the same routine. Angels are variations of human evolution. Have you of Australopithecus? They were a branch of homo, so basically two variatons of human evolution existed at the same time, but Australopithecus went extinct. It's hard to believe that they just died away, it could be that they and our ancestors started killing each over but they lost. I'm trying to say that this is similar. Evangelion- Evangelions are copys of Angel, artificial humans and artificial gods of sorts. They represent humanitys god complex issue. As gods-By creating the idea of god- a thing that should be worshiped, should be aproached with awe and respect -was created a sort of new goal, a thing that should be reached, becoming or creating and controling god. Even now humans tend to play god. As artificial humans-the interesting part was that ,despite being man-made, to create artficial human was needed an actual human's soul as a core and a pilot to make it move-soul and mind of Evangelion. I'm not that good in english, for such a deep theme... well, I'll try my best Definition of "Angel" varies from one religion to another. You captured the general concept, but SSE (Shin Seiki Evangelion) is heavily based on eastern religions and their premises. Buddhism, Hinduism and alikes have a common belief of looking to "God" as abstract existences, meant to "exist" only on a higher level, and humans supposedly had to understand inner truths and seek to avoid human attachments, eventually merging into that "god''s existence, and ceasing to be a human per se Thinking about this, you can see SSE Angel are abstractions of such existences, they're "things-like-humans", except that humanity couldn't fulfill their major goal: to merge into Creator By having this higher understanding, all "Angels" in SSE are seeking to merge into Adam (Lilith), and I strongly believe this is the meaning of being called this name. Humanity were split into individual souls, and this, besides having a spiritual meaning, is also heavily related to japanese society, that priorizes society over individuals, and is often view as a critic view of Hideaki Anno This "critic view" is possible because the religious "approach" can be directly "mapped" to the society thing: in eastern religions you should merge into higher beings, eventually becoming One that encompasses all. The main idea here is that "shared" mind is "better" than having your own Ego. Same holds on society: for different and unrelated reasons though, your individualitiy is considered "wrong". You can see too that, even being a "good thing" (Seele wants to do it no matter what), merging into god's being will lead to world destruction. About Evangelion Units: EVA-01 is only child of Lilith. For those not very skilled on theology, Lilith is supposed to be Adam's lover, and often (and in SSE too) considered as human-kind progenitor. As Lilith is aware that their children are seeking God for wrong reasons (Lust and Power) she kills herself with longinus spear. Here the spear stands for "male" in male/female imn phallic abstraction of the sexual act. Evangelions are the trial to successfully clone that God, and their only 100% success is EVA-01 As EVA-00 is nothing but a prototype, it's pretty much like a doll. In ep 23 we can see Ayanami Rei revealing that, if she leaves Unit, AT-Field would be gone and Ikari Shinji would be in danger. "human-like-angel" Kaworu Nagisa later reveals that he can controls Eva because he is also a being born from same "source", and have his own AT-Field because, being no human, his soul is not splitted and have all light. These are very strong evidences that EVA-00 is controlled solely for Ayanami Rei. Ayanami Rei also is not injured in episode 01, as she appears minutes earlier completely healthy. As they say on Seele, they have a Scenario to be reproduced, and Shinji is meant to pilot 01 Unit and he is the only one able to do it. Why he? In an accident years earlier, his mother were the original pilot but eventually got merged with 01 Unit, accepting the merging with God. Even merged, her soul still retains some memories (when Human Instrumentality is achieved you can see for instance Misato's memories of her past), and have the primal urge to defend her only child. Therefore, every time Shinji is about to face death, EVA reacts as individual and takes fight for own sake without pilot synchro. Understanding these primal instincts of a mother is fundamental here: it's basically what states that Seele has no option if not trusting Ikari's son Already talked too much. If someone replies, I would like to continue this, but SSE is not REEEEEEALY a very deep thing... one should never try to find answers to pure metaphores. An example of that is "where Angels come from?". There is no answer for that, because they are meant to represent abstract ideas like "the ones who are not so imperfect and are trying to find their God". mysteries on these Anime ohave to be set apart from metaphores. Personally, I like S.E.Lain (veeeeery) deeper than SSE. And even deeper, is Boogiepop Phantom |
| There are 10 types of people in this world: those who understand binary and those who don't Real men don't use Task Manager: they sudo kill -9 Computers are like air-conditioning: pretty much useless if you open Windows "I cannot refute you, Socrates." - said Agathon Symposium - Plato"Rather, dear Agathon, what you can't refute is the truth; for Socrates is easily refuted." |
gatotsu911But hold on just a second. How exactly do you determine what's "deeper" than what else? I mean, what's your system of measurement? A Pedanticometer?? Contrary to popular belief, Evangelion's depth is not illusory; there are a number of highly complex and compelling themes simmering around under the surface, and they're not all obvious. What exactly are your criteria for determining the "hierarchy of Deepness"?[/quote said: Comparison with another titles. I know the same holds for Elfen Lied topic below, but I was not exactly saying Evangelion "IS" (in a strict and absolute sense) "NOT DEEP" (just compared it with BP and SEL). As long the observed objects are ultimately related to the being who observes it, they're not essentially the same, therefore one could say that Mickey Mouse is a deep character, and there is no way to prove that it's not, except using strict definitions (and again, those definitions could or not be accepted by parts) |
| There are 10 types of people in this world: those who understand binary and those who don't Real men don't use Task Manager: they sudo kill -9 Computers are like air-conditioning: pretty much useless if you open Windows "I cannot refute you, Socrates." - said Agathon Symposium - Plato"Rather, dear Agathon, what you can't refute is the truth; for Socrates is easily refuted." |
| Now I've read this more carefully 3 - Let me tell something not very good about "The End of Evangelion": in late 90's Gainax was almost facing bankrupt, then they took their most successful creation (SSE) and made that movie, with $$$ intentions only. That's why "End of Eva" has explicit violence and sex themes. 4 - Conceptual model for a family on japan society is well formed and amost a "cliche". Works basically like this: - The father is called the "salaryman". His role is to provide financial support for the family, and he is not very much close to his kids. - The Mother is supposed to raise their children, providing emotional support and often spoiling first male child. Such "spoiling-thing-phenomena" is often called "AMAE" and may lead to emotional problems. Older, spoiled son, becomes overprotected and develops fear of social interaction, while his brothers often have trauma because they don't receive same treatment. - Male child, specially first one, grows up often not very close to his father, and spoiled by his mother, but society creates a pressure over him: he is the next man, and he is supposed to have higher grades and live in constant competition. This social pressure leads to insane fear of failure and can end up in suicide - Female child are often treated like "do-what-you-want" by parents. They often try to get attention, and grow up alone, reaching maturity earlier than boys. Eva depicts this model: Soryu Asuka is in love with Kaji, an older man with can play a role of a father, who is probably either distant ou absent at all (or even dead). She is always trying to get attention because most people pay more attention to Ikari Shinji (the "male child"). In Japan is not rare a girl express her feeling to a boy. Woman have more initiative as man are "shy". In spite of all this, Shinji is often hated by his weak posture in life facing problems, some may consider it annoying and disturbing as depicts lack of attitude. Asuka is often hated for the direct opposite reason: when dealing with a sensitive and problematic boy she is considered arrogant and uncomprehensive, often trying to project his pain on him, once he is sometimes the source of that pain by drawing more attention from people. It's quite obvious that Asuka's persona is not a model of kindness and good manners 1 - Evangelion is a good plot (the discovery of God in North Pole and the accident with Ikari Yui) and metaphore (do we have to search, find, or even create if we run out of options, God: Yes or No). I personally like Anime answer to that: in Lilith's "uterus" Ikari Shinji merges into God Conscience and starts questioning something interesting: maybe I fell fine here, confortable, but feeling like this is really better? Yes, society as they are have MANY problems, but I still wanted to live and even USE those problems in order to personal evolution and learning. It an even better conclusion because Shinji has emotional problems, showing that even he could understand the value of "imperfect no-divine" world. Personally, if I go into an EVA Unit someday, I'll synchronize let me see... 600% ou 700% and NEVER get out of there.... |
| There are 10 types of people in this world: those who understand binary and those who don't Real men don't use Task Manager: they sudo kill -9 Computers are like air-conditioning: pretty much useless if you open Windows "I cannot refute you, Socrates." - said Agathon Symposium - Plato"Rather, dear Agathon, what you can't refute is the truth; for Socrates is easily refuted." |
| Well, I could point specific examples I guess, but still IS a personal view... "deep" is, as you said, relative concepts. Even if some of them eventually "convince" you, it was not my real intention at first. I could point some good stuff about Lain and Boogiepop if you want. Now about your SECOND question.... Focus on fightning scenes.. lack of abstract thinking... Misato (MILF - God, how I HATE MILFS) kissing Shinji (teenager) and well Did you REALLY watched the first scene at the hospital....? Things on EoE that supports what I've said: - Focus on concrete answers instead of abstract problems (people don't usually like to think, easy plot = more $$$) - Focus on "Mecha" fighting (EVA UNIT's are human-like beings controlled with external armor and devices for mind synchro and all that Uterus abstraction to resemble Mother of Humanity, but just watching the stupid useless hysterical girl in her Red Gundam slashing Seele's Mecha seems more cool, therefore, more $$$) - Explicit exploration over sex themes: real sex between Shinji and Misato has never really occured, but Shinji's persona resembles like I've said many teenagers in Japan, and many of them were SSE fans. Same holds for the masturbation scene. Did you ever read "Lolita" from Vladimir Nabokov? It has the fourth place on most read english publications on 20th century. In spite of this theme and suggestive title, it hasn't one single line of pornography. It's entirely based on deep analysis of Humbert's psyche. If you think you have to take off Misato/Asuka/whoever' clothes to pierce into EVA fan desires, you're wrong. Search the Internet. "Kiss" scene and "masturbating" scene are both most often remembered. 1st place, though, is probably the last scene. But those two follows it on "popularity". In fact, it's a real shame that such a good and deep show (yes, I THINK it is deep BUT NOT like Lain and Boogiepop) is so often rememebered as a "Asuka kicks their asses!" or "Shinji is so perverted" or "I don't really understand that bullshit on final scene but liked Seele's fight!". Do you play chess? Let's suppose you play white and you have a rook in d1, defended by another rook in a1. You opponent have a rook in d8 and a rook in a8, same situation. Let's assume that it's an open column (withoiut pawns) and is unblocked by other pieces. In this situation, none can really takes the another rook. If you play Rxd8, black will play Rxd8 and has, alone, control over the column. Same holds for the opposite: black playing Rxd1 and you replying Rxd1. Therefore their power is hold only with the threat, as being the first to make the move would lead to unpleasant position. Same with EVA: metaphores are supposed to suggest ideas and abstract concepts. Most people wants a CONCRETE EXACT LOGICAL meaning for EVERYTHING on the plot. EoE was trying to do it to please fans and get some $$$ support (like I've said, they were about to break...) Sorry. I THINK (now I will "append" this 'i think' on every sentence) SSE is good series, good plot, deep approach... ok. EoE is SSE for dummies. ("I THINK") |
| There are 10 types of people in this world: those who understand binary and those who don't Real men don't use Task Manager: they sudo kill -9 Computers are like air-conditioning: pretty much useless if you open Windows "I cannot refute you, Socrates." - said Agathon Symposium - Plato"Rather, dear Agathon, what you can't refute is the truth; for Socrates is easily refuted." |
| Now I would like to raise a new question. It's probably "off-topic", but I don't know if making a new thread would be really necessary for that. It is still Gainax. I was speaking about metaphores and I've remembered a true masterpiece. It have the subtlety and elegance of Anderssen games, Agatha Christie's mysteries, or (in a more "ludic" sense), Morpheus' last move against Chronzon (Sandman: Nocturnal and Preludes - Neil Gailman): The sex scene on Karekano ep 18. Never have seen such a beautiful scene.. depicting perfectly all feelings of spirit over a so obvious act of "flesh". I realized those things exists inside us but (maybe because of physical pleasure) we can't really perceive it always. And, knowing it or not, putting that into that form, shape, representation. I could easily call "king of metaphores". Maybe I'm overreacting, specially because that doesn't fit STRICTLY on definition of "metaphore". But I'm using it to make this fair and proud compliment to that episode. |
| There are 10 types of people in this world: those who understand binary and those who don't Real men don't use Task Manager: they sudo kill -9 Computers are like air-conditioning: pretty much useless if you open Windows "I cannot refute you, Socrates." - said Agathon Symposium - Plato"Rather, dear Agathon, what you can't refute is the truth; for Socrates is easily refuted." |
| Well, now we are almost reaching a single point Ok, I admit that I could have been impressed with Gainax financial problems when releasing EoE. I still hold my opinion about concrete X abstract. I could have pushed it so far when said that it was done to "please audience". Maybe not. Even so, I personally found it more focused on concrete answer. This story about rejecting scripts is almost the same as what I've said about bankrupcy... we'll never know the truth. Let me just say that, if SSE was orignially intended to end like EoE, then I don't know WHO actually rejected it, but I agree. Maybe I was confunsing metaphores, symbolisms, and many others elements alike, but regardless of semantics I was talking about those thoughts and phylosophy about freedom, limits, flaws, flawless, and all subjects related to religions itself. Actually, you're right when you say that EoE depicts some of those in "second half". Nevertheless, I prefer the abstract way of ep 25 and 26. I disagree they are same thing, but let's assume they are. Well, so you could place a scene with Miyazawa and Arima-Kun in bed in Karekano 18. I would just ignore it. The way is was done (be it symbolism, metaphores, ou whatever), is what makes me think of it as a masterpiece, work of genius. You're right abou t sex. I agree specially about the masturbation scene, it was intended to show disturbed psyche of Ikari Shinji. Again, I think this disturbance was made clear eve without explicit scene. Yes, you maybe have noticed, I like that abstract approach of deep themes, like I love a game dangerous where any player, by not wanting to move his rook, could forget about that and make a mistake. It excites me. |
| There are 10 types of people in this world: those who understand binary and those who don't Real men don't use Task Manager: they sudo kill -9 Computers are like air-conditioning: pretty much useless if you open Windows "I cannot refute you, Socrates." - said Agathon Symposium - Plato"Rather, dear Agathon, what you can't refute is the truth; for Socrates is easily refuted." |
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