[4:06:54 PM] Avelys: OKAY ANYWAYS
[4:07:35 PM] Avelys: so for this discussion, i'm thinking we just speak freely with no format. especially since we're so few.
[4:07:50 PM] Ashwin: sure
[4:07:54 PM] Ryan: ok
[4:08:24 PM] Avelys: I'll just start off by saying what did you guys think of the manga? Then just speak whatever
[4:09:22 PM] Ryan: yup, i liked it, really liked how emotionally unstable the main character was and the whole message about beauty and youth in the manga.
[4:09:43 PM] Ryan: plus the art is good too
[4:09:57 PM] Avelys: yeah I liked how the art also matched how unstable she was
[4:10:25 PM] Avelys: it wasn't neat, it just felt like scribbles at times. like, no fucks were given.
[4:10:35 PM] Ashwin: so, I thought it was a pretty cool manga. you know i'm a fan of edgy things and this was very edgy. i think it explored the whole celebrity complex culture that we have pretty well. i am not a fan of the characterization outside of the MC though. i thought her assistants for example were really poorly characterized. the manga also had a general "diabolus ex" feel where just when you think it couldn't get worse, it does
[4:10:47 PM] Ashwin: the art was really really cool, very striking style
[4:11:00 PM] Avelys: yeah I agree, I didn't care for anybody at all
[4:11:07 PM] Ryan: MC was the biggest hilight basically
[4:11:07 PM] Avelys: except her
[4:11:16 PM] Ashwin: lines were all over the place and there wasn't a whole lot of definition but that works for a mango like this because the whole point is to kinda emphasize their insanity
[4:11:20 PM] Avelys: yeah, she was written SO WELL
[4:11:21 PM] Avelys: just RAW
[4:11:29 PM] Ashwin: i think she was written well, idk about extremely well
[4:11:44 PM] Ashwin: it was a little hyperbolic at times
[4:12:00 PM] Ashwin: i guess that's my issue with the manga as a whole, and stories like these in general
[4:12:02 PM] Avelys: yeah, psychological manga really have a different style than "normal" manga. like they try to use their art to really represent the character's emotions.
[4:12:10 PM] Ashwin: the author is prone to exaggerating a lot of stuff
[4:12:24 PM] Ashwin: it kinda breaks immersion
[4:12:29 PM] Ashwin: oh
[4:12:29 PM] Avelys: I remember when I first read this, I was blown away at how honest her character was portrayed.
[4:12:39 PM] Avelys: Just unfiltered
[4:12:41 PM] Ashwin: well your site has autoplay so idc about your opinion :<
[4:12:48 PM] Ashwin: k
[4:12:49 PM] Ashwin: e
[4:12:50 PM] Ashwin: k
[4:12:51 PM] Avelys: w
[4:12:52 PM] Avelys: o
[4:12:52 PM] Avelys: w
[4:12:56 PM] Ashwin: ok I've been meaning to ask
[4:12:58 PM] Ashwin: why are my replies
[4:12:59 PM | Edited 4:13:10 PM] Vincent: I found it a bit odd how the asistant (and her boyfriend) just sticked with ririko, even going as far as throwing acid on other people
[4:13:00 PM] Ashwin: coming before your posts
[4:13:07 PM] Ashwin: or is that just on my end
[4:13:08 PM] Ashwin: smh
[4:13:11 PM] Avelys: skype lags lmfao
[4:13:11 PM] Ashwin: Skype step it up
[4:13:17 PM] Ryan: i think its cause they were weak people
[4:13:24 PM] Ashwin: Vincent i completely agree
[4:13:29 PM] Avelys: yeah, I think it just points out how some people obsess over their idols, Vincent.
[4:13:41 PM] Avelys: losing common sense
[4:14:30 PM] Avelys: and the fact that they're willing to go above and beyond for her, kind of perpetuating her selfish behavior JUST BEACUSE SHE COULD. Just because people would still be her slaves
[4:14:37 PM] Ashwin: that was a huge issue for me as well. their characterization was very poor and this is another example of too much hyperbole - trying to emphasize obsession and insanity by randomly making them obsessive and insane without any prior development is pretty lazy writing
[4:14:45 PM] Avelys: but she always felt alone
[4:14:51 PM] Ashwin: like they just suddenly became obsessed with her
[4:14:53 PM] Ashwin: without warning
[4:14:55 PM] Ashwin: it just happened
[4:14:59 PM] Avelys: like a never ending cycle of toxic
[4:15:01 PM] Ashwin: especially the bf
[4:15:05 PM] Ashwin: that was the most random thing
[4:15:11 PM] Ashwin: he walks in and he immediately gets suckered
[4:15:17 PM] Avelys: people are like that in rl, ashwin
[4:15:21 PM] Ashwin: that's still not good writing though
[4:15:23 PM] Ashwin: still very lazy writing
[4:15:25 PM] Ashwin: this is fiction
[4:15:26 PM] Avelys: they are obsessed without any real reason
[4:15:30 PM] Ashwin: lots of things happen irl
[4:15:34 PM] Ryan: well wasnt because of how popular she was
[4:15:35 PM] Avelys: why are people obsessed with Justin bieber
[4:15:42 PM] Avelys: he pees in buckets and makes meh music
[4:15:42 PM] Ashwin: that doesn't mean every real life thing would be good in fiction
[4:15:54 PM] Ryan: lmfao
[4:16:12 PM] Vincent: [4:14 PM] Avelys:
<<< kind of perpetuating her selfish behavior JUST BEACUSE SHE COULD.I felt it also because she was really paranoid about people trying to hurt her when they weren't and taking "revenge" on them by making them suffer aswell (or taking them down with her)
[4:18:09 PM] Ashwin: like there was this lady in a town a few hundred miles from where i live who randomly kidnapped a pregnant woman and forcibly aborted her baby, then killed herself. but if you wrote a story where the starting point is "normal lady living with husband" and then jump immediately to "kills preggers after aborting her kid", that's bad writing
[4:18:14 PM] Ashwin: even though it happened irl
[4:18:38 PM] Avelys: hmm I see what you mean
[4:19:05 PM] Avelys: i didn't feel like it deserved that much explanation, just that these people were weak willed and had an unnatural obsession
[4:19:16 PM] Avelys: but yeah it would've benefitted from more characterization
[4:19:22 PM] Ashwin: it's about development mostly. i really dislike when characters are used as plot devices or caricaturized to represent an idea
[4:19:30 PM] Ashwin: i guess it's a debatable thing though
[4:19:47 PM] Ashwin: lmao
[4:19:50 PM] Avelys: her face peeling off was so grossss omg
[4:19:55 PM] Ashwin: that's how my face felt when i heard autoplay
[4:19:58 PM] Ashwin: now you know
[4:20:05 PM] Avelys: lmfao
[4:20:09 PM | Edited 4:20:41 PM] Vincent: yea, in the end the story kinda felt it was written to make the right things happen so that the story of the MC could continue
[4:20:57 PM] Avelys: i was watching this thugnotes video on hamlet and he talked about how in the play they referenced a lot of skin diseases -> how this means that a lot of them are rotting on the inside (personality wise) and i think it's a good metaphor for these characters
[4:20:58 PM] Ashwin: yes
[4:21:03 PM] Ashwin: that was definitely in this manga too
[4:21:05 PM] Avelys: and this whole celebrity color, like you said, ash
[4:21:11 PM] Ashwin: i was actually thinking about that exact video lmao
[4:21:13 PM] Ashwin: while i was reading
[4:21:24 PM] Ashwin: like while she was peeling away
[4:21:36 PM] Ashwin: good use of litererery device
[4:21:41 PM] Ryan: her beauty was decaying
[4:22:04 PM] Avelys: yea, in the end the story kinda felt it was written to make the right things happen so that the story of the MC could continueit's unfortunate the mangaka couldn't continue the manga. actually the entire thing is apparently a draft, and the editor decided to publish it.
[4:22:10 PM] Ashwin: oh right
[4:22:11 PM] Ryan: wow
[4:22:17 PM] Ashwin: yeah apparently she was in a car acc shortly after
[4:22:22 PM] Ashwin: and she never got to finish
[4:22:24 PM] Ashwin: :/
[4:22:26 PM] Avelys: i think the mangaka got into an
[4:22:27 PM] Avelys: yeah
[4:22:37 PM] Ashwin: it's too bad she is a really interesting mangaka
[4:22:45 PM] Ashwin: also apparently she was a big influence on
[4:22:46 PM] Vincent: she is still alive though, right?
[4:22:47 PM] Ashwin: who else
[4:22:48 PM] Ashwin: asano
[4:22:49 PM] Ashwin: yeah
[4:22:52 PM] Ashwin: she's still alive
[4:22:56 PM] Avelys: so it explains why there are some open ended things and it's not very polished
[4:23:02 PM] Ashwin: yeah
[4:23:06 PM] Avelys: what, seriously?
[4:23:08 PM] Avelys: Asano
[4:23:08 PM] Avelys: wow
[4:23:13 PM] Ashwin: it makes a lot of sense when you think about it though
[4:23:27 PM] Avelys: she wrote this other manga that hasn't been scanlated. brandi, let's do it.
[4:23:33 PM] Avelys: yeah it does
[4:23:36 PM] Ashwin: asano is definitely the 2000-2010s version of the 90s writers who were really cynical and pessimistic about stuff
[4:23:48 PM] Ashwin: yo i really want to read um
[4:23:53 PM] Ashwin: the manga she wrote about that prostitute
[4:23:56 PM] Ashwin: who has a pet alligator
[4:23:59 PM] Ashwin: it looks interesting
[4:24:11 PM] Ashwin: i think it's called pink?
[4:24:20 PM] Ryan: oh yeah i heard of it
[4:24:31 PM] Avelys: that's the one
[4:24:46 PM] Ashwin: that hasn't been scanlated? i swear I've seen it around somewhere
[4:24:50 PM] Avelys: hasn't been scanlated i think
[4:24:57 PM] Ashwin: aw man
[4:24:58 PM] Ryan: i saw it at my library one time
[4:24:59 PM] Avelys: not sure
[4:25:02 PM] Ryan: i think its scanned
[4:25:07 PM] Ashwin: should def scanlate imo
[4:25:18 PM] Ashwin: instead of leaving it to some pleb group that doesn't know english
[4:25:22 PM] Ashwin: noooo
[4:25:31 PM] Ashwin: well if it's professionally scanned then it's ok
[4:25:31 PM] Avelys: maybe it was licensed
[4:25:34 PM] Ashwin: yea
[4:25:47 PM] Vincent: The ending of helter skelter was a bit odd too, suddenly her skin restored itself and everything turned out to be (sort of) okay.
(althought that might be an extention on the rotten character metaphore?)
[4:26:23 PM] Avelys: well years passed
[4:26:26 PM] Avelys: it's kinda open ended
[4:26:31 PM] Avelys: we don't know how it happened
[4:26:43 PM] Ashwin: yeah i'm not sure what she was going for there. it was clearly supposed to be some kind of development where she got rid of her obsession with being a perfect model celeb or something like that
[4:26:46 PM] Avelys: but she IS out of that horrible celebrity culture
[4:26:47 PM] Avelys: so maybe
[4:26:54 PM | Edited 4:27:08 PM] Vincent: I suppose that kind of fits in the exotic character of her too
[4:26:56 PM] Ashwin: but idk where the story was supposed to go from there
[4:27:01 PM] Ashwin: yeah
[4:27:02 PM] Ashwin: definitely
[4:27:13 PM] Avelys: also maybe she's wearing a mask
[4:27:25 PM] Ryan: wait didnt she blow her eye out
[4:27:29 PM] Vincent: he would have to be wearing a full body suit then
[4:27:32 PM] Vincent: yea
[4:27:36 PM] Vincent: she has an eyepatch
[4:28:10 PM] Ashwin: oh yeah
[4:28:13 PM] Avelys: i love how legendary she became
[4:28:16 PM] Ashwin: i forgot about her eye lmao
[4:28:21 PM | Edited 4:28:32 PM] Vincent: (my movie managed to download in time!)
[4:28:29 PM] Ryan: kinda ironic how she became popular again after getting exposed
[4:28:48 PM] Avelys: ^
[4:28:49 PM] Vincent: That happens a lot in the media though
[4:28:57 PM] Ashwin: yea i think that was the idea
[4:29:09 PM] Ashwin: that they only cared about her once she became something new and controversial
[4:29:14 PM] Ryan: yup
[4:29:43 PM] Avelys: it's like a vicious cycle. they fight so hard to become relevant but only once they leave dramatically do they make a real impression
[4:29:43 PM] Ryan: but the 15 year old chick was pretty popular as well and shes the complete opposite of the MC
[4:29:49 PM] Avelys: or a death
[4:30:13 PM] Avelys: yeah but she might eventually go through the same thing
[4:30:24 PM] Ashwin: i don't think she ever made a real impression though
[4:30:32 PM] Vincent: I think the point of the manga was to make it feel like it'll just happen over and over though
[4:30:34 PM] Ashwin: i think the point is that everything in celeb culture is a passing fancy
[4:30:36 PM] Ashwin: yeah
[4:30:38 PM] Avelys: and she has youth on her side
[4:30:43 PM] Avelys: after 20, they retire
[4:31:03 PM] Vincent: people come, people get replaced and they'll be forgotten about rather easily
[4:32:13 PM] Avelys: that's the price of being loved by millions
[4:32:24 PM] Avelys: "loved"
[4:32:28 PM] Ashwin: it's too bad she didn't have more time to finish this. there are a bunch of really cool ideas at play and i really wanted to see where the story went after that final reveal
[4:33:25 PM] Avelys: i agree
[4:33:43 PM] Avelys: especially wanna know how she is like as a character now
[4:33:57 PM] Avelys: despite her huge decision, which already showed her development
[4:34:02 PM] Avelys: i wanna see how she sees life
[4:34:14 PM] Avelys: also how fucked up was that scene with the guy, her assistant and her
[4:34:26 PM] Ryan: which part are you referring to
[4:34:35 PM] Ryan: the sex scene?
[4:34:44 PM] Avelys: yea
[4:35:26 PM] Ashwin: yeah lol
[4:35:30 PM] Ashwin: honestly i thought that scene was hilarious
[4:35:37 PM] Avelys: (tmi)
[4:35:43 PM] Avelys: why hilarious
[4:35:44 PM] Ashwin: mostly for the reasons i mentioned earlier
[4:35:47 PM] Ashwin: just the absurdity of it all
[4:35:51 PM] Ryan: i laughed too actually
[4:35:55 PM] Ashwin: also because i'm just like that :s
[4:36:11 PM] Ashwin: you wanna know what's really fucked up though
[4:36:14 PM] Ashwin: AUTOPLAY
[4:36:15 PM] Vincent: I'm not quite sure why the manga needed that much sexual emphasis, I can understand a part of it, but in the end it kinda felt like it was used as a filler
[4:36:16 PM] Ashwin: FUCKING BRANDI
[4:36:19 PM] Ashwin: FUCK OFF WITH THIS SHIT
[4:36:27 PM] Ashwin: ^
[4:36:41 PM] Ashwin: part of the hyperbole that the author kinda relied on too much
[4:36:52 PM] Ashwin: it was a pretty edgy manga
[4:37:02 PM] Ashwin: i read somewhere that okazaki was like
[4:37:13 PM] Ashwin: sort of a pioneer of cynical manga like this
[4:37:21 PM] Ashwin: in the 90s when everyone was depressed and broke
[4:37:25 PM] Ashwin: especially in japan
[4:37:49 PM] Ashwin: so i think it's understandable
[4:38:06 PM] Ashwin: back then it wasn't "lol edgy" it really was just edgy, because there weren't many stories like that
[4:38:25 PM] Ashwin: but that kind of thing hasn't aged well since we're so used to edge in media now
[4:38:50 PM] Avelys: i loved that she was afraid to feature those types of scenes tho
[4:38:50 PM] Ashwin: was or wasn't?
[4:38:56 PM] Ashwin: yeah
[4:38:57 PM] Avelys: for breaking new ground, i admire it
[4:39:01 PM] Avelys: wasn't*
[4:39:13 PM] Avelys: it was really there to set the mood
[4:39:24 PM] Avelys: the art + shocking scenes = psychological
[4:39:44 PM] Avelys: maybe she used it to much but i felt it worked and wasn't out of place
[4:40:02 PM] Ashwin: i definitely admire her vision. not just the sex stuff but moreso her willingness to tackle topics like celebrity culture in an age where that issue didn't have as much spotlight as it does now
[4:40:06 PM] Avelys: she used it more in the beginning than the end, tho
[4:40:13 PM] Avelys: so there was a place for it, without being overused
[4:40:15 PM] Ashwin: and stylistically she is pretty daring
[4:40:23 PM] Ashwin: like even a lot of manga now don't really look like that
[4:40:28 PM] Ashwin: just from an aesthetic standpoint
[4:40:38 PM] Avelys: yeah
[4:40:50 PM] Avelys: i love when the art style is totally different from what we're used to
[4:41:13 PM] Ashwin: actually hideaki anno's wife wrote a similar manga about an overweight woman struggling with her image, and the art and writing style in that manga were similar to this
[4:41:26 PM] Ashwin: i think okazaki was def an influence
[4:41:27 PM] Ashwin: yeah
[4:41:29 PM] Avelys: can you link it?
[4:41:30 PM] Ryan: never heard of this
[4:41:32 PM] Avelys: that sounds interesting
[4:41:34 PM] Ashwin: the char designs weren't that similar but
[4:41:39 PM] Ashwin: uhh fuck what was it
[4:42:01 PM] Avelys: should be next weekly manga imo :^ )
[4:42:28 PM] Ashwin: oh my fuck she's written a lot of manga
[4:42:32 PM] Ashwin: ummm
[4:42:41 PM] Ryan: Moyoco Anno?
[4:42:49 PM] Ashwin: http://myanimelist.net/manga/13881/Shibou_to_Iu_Na_no_Fuku_wo_Kite
[4:42:52 PM] Ashwin: here it is
[4:42:57 PM] Ashwin: oh lol the first rec is actually
[4:42:59 PM] Ashwin: helter skelter
[4:43:06 PM] Ashwin: yeah it is a similar story
[4:43:07 PM] Ryan: this looks rad af
[4:43:10 PM] Ashwin: you can def see the influence
[4:43:17 PM] Ashwin: YEAH SHE IS
[4:43:18 PM] Avelys: wow she's pretty
[4:43:19 PM] Avelys: http://myanimelist.net/people/2340/Moyoco_Anno
[4:43:38 PM] Avelys: omg i want to read this rn
[4:43:43 PM] Ashwin: i was gonna say, damn how tf did the guy who made eva land her
[4:43:45 PM] Ashwin: like seriously wtf
[4:43:48 PM] Ashwin: that makes me angry
[4:43:54 PM] Avelys: LOL
[4:43:59 PM] Avelys: hahhahahaha
[4:44:00 PM] Ashwin: "look at how edgy i am now pls marry me"
[4:44:04 PM] Ashwin: what the fuck dude
[4:44:10 PM] Avelys: (rofl)
[4:44:34 PM] Avelys: did u read this, ash
[4:44:42 PM] Ashwin: the manga i linked?
[4:44:47 PM] Ashwin: yeah a little while ago
[4:44:53 PM] Ashwin: it was not too bad
[4:45:14 PM] Ashwin: i had some similar issues to the ones i had here although i think anno's manga is a little more grounded
[4:45:25 PM] Ashwin: it's really interesting i think you guys would like it a lot
[4:46:26 PM] Avelys: cool
[4:46:55 PM] Avelys: so would you guys recommend this manga to be read or skip it?
[4:47:24 PM] Ryan: yeah i'd read it
[4:47:38 PM] Ashwin: i'd be ok with rereading it
[4:47:50 PM] Ryan: art looks pretty nice too
[4:48:08 PM] Avelys: I would recommend this for psychological manga lovers, since it's pretty different from the norm. I wouldn't recommend it for people just looking for a sugar rush or something cute >_> (sloth)
[4:48:09 PM] Avelys: :D
[4:48:14 PM] Ashwin: wot
[4:48:25 PM] Avelys: he dropped it :(
[4:48:28 PM] Avelys: after ch 3
[4:48:30 PM] Avelys: (u)
[4:48:38 PM] Ryan: i think he said he wasnt fond of the art either
[4:48:46 PM] Ashwin: lmaooo
[4:48:50 PM] Ashwin: oh hey
[4:49:11 PM] Ashwin: here's one of the descriptions from someone who rec'd helter skelter to the anno manga
[4:49:12 PM] Ashwin: "Anno Moyoco was Okazaki's assistant and helped complete Helter Skelter after Okazaki was physically unable. Her strong influence on Anno, in both the drawing and writing style, is immediately evident. The themes are similar as well—women struggle with their own body image, how others perceive them, and the destructive extremes they go to for appearances. "
[4:49:19 PM] Avelys: well it is a pretty crazy manga
[4:49:19 PM] Ashwin: now everything makes sense
[4:49:36 PM] Ashwin: lmao right
[4:49:37 PM] Ryan: pretty cool
