jtaenz said: SERN and the rounders SERN researches time travel in Beta too, but they are a non-factor because they never get onto Kurisu's papers before the others. They are always behind on information without Okabe's phonewave machine. Rounder's mission in Alpha was to find and retrieve the IBN 5100, they knew there is one in Akihabara. In Beta they probably have a different mission that doesn't concern Okabe's lab. jtaenz said: Reading steiner activation early in the anime There are some more direct changes in the VN, for example that "dream" in episode 4 was more throughoutly explored, although they never explain the exact reasons. Suzuha travels in 2036, Okabe isn't alive then, so he can't experience Reading Stiner. We are following an Okabe who lives in a world line where the jump has already happened. jtaenz said: Amane Yuki's injuries Just a red-herring, I don't see this as bad writing. It worked better in the VN playing with your expectations if you came from the other route (now *that* was bad writing). jtaenz said: Kagari shouldn't exist That Kagari came from a different world line with different future. jtaenz said: Okabe's 3000 time leaps from the future His jumps didn't change the future drasticly enough. Suzuha comes from 2036 every time in every beta world line, he probably dies before then. The anime changed the way that part of the story was reached, I agree the time leap not working is very convenient and plot-holish. |
AquamirrorOct 7, 2018 5:45 AM
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jtaenz said: What I'm saying is that every jump by Suzuha should in theory introduce a worldline shift, because the jump itself, i.e. Suzuha's presence in that particular time, is an alteration to the past that will change the future, unless she never leaves the time machine. So my point is that if Suzuha was jumping repeatedly to 1998 to look for Kagari, those jumps should have been introducing worldline shifts and activating Okabe's reading steiner. This is not something we see in the anime/VNs, just an idea that its possible young Okabe should have experienced reading steiner prior to the original VN. Her jumps didn't cause any big changes to the divergence, Reading Steiner only triggers if there is significant enough difference between memories. The only difference she did by these small jumps was create the ghost-girl rumor but that didn't cause anything. jtaenz said: I feel like in order for it to be a red herring it would have to actually influence the plot, but it doesn't. Not a big deal though. It caused enough confusion to suspect her instead of Reyes, which was already too obvious. jtaenz said: Here I disagree with you. My understanding was that each worldline had to be internally consistent. Kagari can only be sent back to the past in worldlines where Mayuri survives, so if Mayori doesn't survive, no Kagari (for example the alpha worldline where only Suzuha is present). So that just brings my back to my original problem, Kagari existing throughout the show implies Mayuri survives the destruction of the time machine, which means they should both be around to say hi to Okabe in 2036, but they aren't because that would break the plot. Mayuri's death isn't a convergence event. Even if she dies and Kagari isn't sent back, that doesn't change the previous world line that had already happened and affected the current one. Kagari can exist in the present because she existed before in a different future. Even if the current future changes, that won't affect her existence in the present. Every time travel leads to a slightly different world line. |
AquamirrorOct 7, 2018 7:31 AM
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| There are many different beta world lines and different iterations 0kabe lived trough trying out different stuff. The machine only explodes in world lines where Mayuri decided to go back together with Suzuha. The exact reason is kinda moot, the anime made us believe it is because of Russia's knowledge on Amadeus. In the VN one leap and earlier travel was enough to avoid it, but that was a different world line. It is not a convergence. jtaenz said: Why *does* Kagari look like Kurisu "Coincidence" is all we've got. jtaenz said: Why can SERN detect d-mails but not time leaping? D-Mails get captured by the global surveillance system ECHELON. I guess if you go by the logic that the usage of LHC might alert them, you might add this to the "anime changed stuff" problem with the time leap. Otherwise, they wouldn't have time to react right after the leap is made. But that is all speculations, apparently it's not enough to make them do anything against the lab. |
AquamirrorOct 7, 2018 8:17 AM
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Spoiler for you if you plan to read the VN@ jtaenz: Other than that, yes, it's just random. |
jtaenz said: The odd thing is I think it could apply equally to d-mails. A d-mail is sent to the past in worldline A, which introduces changes and spawns worldline B. So is the d-mail still sent in worldline B? Only ECHELON in A should have detected a d-mail, but we're now following B... The D-mail is sent from A and received in B without any source so that A hasn't happened yet. There's a disparity in the date it is sent(future) and received and that's what tips SERN off. jtaenz said: How are they creating the black hole they need to time leap in 2036? Are we to assume the LHC survived WWW3 and is still operational? We don't know how's the situation in Europe. They probably made their own technology of compression together with the other modifications to the machine they did so it is more stable. In the anime they show a bigger black hole inside with many CRT TVs around it. |
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Reply to SirDroffilc
jtaenz said:
Amane Yuki's injuries
Amane Yuki's injuries
Yeah I also thought that this was completely unnecessary. They definitely hinted that Yuki was the one in the motorcycle suit by showing those scenes with her injuries, but that's it. She's not the one in the motorcycle suit and it was never even clarified where she got those injuries. It was truly unnecessary.
Yes, I also believe that it really is a plot hole. When Okabe woke up in the year 2036, Mayuri and Kagari obviously was not there. Mayuri's death in 2011 should have absolutely caused a world line change, since Suzuha knew Mayuri and Kagari from the future. They just straight up ignored their own established rules about time travel.
SirDroffilc said: Yes, I also believe that it really is a plot hole. When Okabe woke up in the year 2036, Mayuri and Kagari obviously was not there. Mayuri's death in 2011 should have absolutely caused a world line change, since Suzuha knew Mayuri and Kagari from the future. They just straight up ignored their own established rules about time travel. No, they did not ignore the rules. That's just not how time travel works in Steins;Gate. @Aquamirror above explained this bit, you should backread the topic |
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Reply to SirDroffilc
@SciADV_Maniac
Yeah, I've read it. But I don't think it's quite right, as far as the anime goes. (I haven't read the VN).
Throughout Steins;Gate 0, Suzuha often encouraged her father Daru to make a move to Yuki. In their conversations, they emphasized that the fact Suzuha was still there means Daru and Yuki still gets together in the future. Suzuha being overly careful about Daru studying the time machine in the future was also the same situation. Suzuha doesn't let Daru go in the time machine as it would cause a time paradox. Suzuha and Mayuri being careful not to stay too long in Operation Arclight was also the same situation; meeting themselves or talking to themselves could possibly cause a time paradox.
That means whatever happens in the present will affect the future of the same world line. Therefore, Mayuri's death should've caused a time paradox or at the very least, a world line change (since the show did not show an instance of a time paradox).
I'm not sure if this was explained much better in the original sources such as the VN, but as far as the anime Steins;Gate and Steins;Gate 0 goes, this should be how the rules of time travel works. I believe I understood the rules of Steins;Gate and I haven't identified any plot hole in Steins;Gate (2011) like this one in Steins;Gate 0. I loved Steins;Gate, it's a masterpiece as is. The addition of Steins;Gate 0 just have too many inconsistencies.
SciADV_Maniac said:
No, they did not ignore the rules. That's just not how time travel works in Steins;Gate. @Aquamirror above explained this bit, you should backread the topic
No, they did not ignore the rules. That's just not how time travel works in Steins;Gate. @Aquamirror above explained this bit, you should backread the topic
Yeah, I've read it. But I don't think it's quite right, as far as the anime goes. (I haven't read the VN).
Throughout Steins;Gate 0, Suzuha often encouraged her father Daru to make a move to Yuki. In their conversations, they emphasized that the fact Suzuha was still there means Daru and Yuki still gets together in the future. Suzuha being overly careful about Daru studying the time machine in the future was also the same situation. Suzuha doesn't let Daru go in the time machine as it would cause a time paradox. Suzuha and Mayuri being careful not to stay too long in Operation Arclight was also the same situation; meeting themselves or talking to themselves could possibly cause a time paradox.
That means whatever happens in the present will affect the future of the same world line. Therefore, Mayuri's death should've caused a time paradox or at the very least, a world line change (since the show did not show an instance of a time paradox).
I'm not sure if this was explained much better in the original sources such as the VN, but as far as the anime Steins;Gate and Steins;Gate 0 goes, this should be how the rules of time travel works. I believe I understood the rules of Steins;Gate and I haven't identified any plot hole in Steins;Gate (2011) like this one in Steins;Gate 0. I loved Steins;Gate, it's a masterpiece as is. The addition of Steins;Gate 0 just have too many inconsistencies.
SirDroffilc said: Throughout Steins;Gate 0, Suzuha often encouraged her father Daru to make a move to Yuki. In their conversations, they emphasized that the fact Suzuha was still there means Daru and Yuki still gets together in the future. Suzuha being overly careful about Daru studying the time machine in the future was also the same situation. Suzuha doesn't let Daru go in the time machine as it would cause a time paradox. Suzuha and Mayuri being careful not to stay too long in Operation Arclight was also the same situation; meeting themselves or talking to themselves could possibly cause a time paradox. There are no paradoxes in Steins;Gate. Suzuha (especially the Beta Suzuha) and the other characters are often unreliable narrators in the story, they don't know the nature of the universe they are living in. Actually Alpha Suzuha is more reliable in that regard, she came from a future where time travel and the nature of the universe was well researched. And she straight up said that nothing would happen if you meet yourself and there is no such thing as grandfather paradox either. Beta Suzuha is just simply wrong when she talks about time paradoxes. Just think of a time traveler as a D-Mail. A D-Mail which was received on "Worldline A" does not have an origin on "Worldline A", but a previously active "Worldline B". It was never sent on "Worldline A" and it not meant to be sent. The same way Kagari does not meant to be adopted on "Worldline A" if she originates from "Worldline B". This is always how it worked and you don't need to be a VN reader to understand that. SirDroffilc said: The addition of Steins;Gate 0 just have too many inconsistencies It really doesn't I assure you ;) I can confirm you as a long time Science Adventure fan ;) |
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